Simulclimbing - Minitraxion to protect leader

I've started to get into more and more simulclimbing. As we get into slightly more complex terrain, we'd like a way to protect the leader should the 2nd somehow fall.

What are folks using?

The minitraxion seems like a great option, but would be curious to see what else is being used and how.

Thanks!

I don't simul-climb much, and when I do, it's on easy terrain where (short of something catastrophic) I feel the odds of myself or my partner falling are essentially nill. That being said, taking a moment to protect yourself from a nasty lead fall seems like a reasonable idea.I've heard of folks using a tiblok oriented upside down. It's lighter than a mini trax and more compact. I might use it on a locking carabiner for the added safety margin.

Tibloc

I only simulclimb terrain I feel comfortable on, and so if it's difficult for me or my partner I'll pitch it out.

If you do simulclimb, shorten the rope to 20-30m. I see a lot of people simulclimbing on a long rope which can be slower than just pitching it out in an efficient way.

Building belays quickly and having fast and efficient changeovers are often the key to moving fast.

I'm not really sure what a single minitraxion or tibloc would really buy you.

I have used both. Lots of people will tell you that a tibloc is dangerous. You can search the forum posts. If you do use a tibloc, use an oval carbiner and make sure the tibloc is flush against the rock so that rope doesn't go over the sharp edge in a leader fall. It will cut your rope! If you don't use an oval biner, the device will lockup the rope as you are leading.

So are you planning on carrying a ton of minis for all of the cruxes?
Or only going to protect one spot in miles of speed climbing?

See the inherent problem with a weaker follower?

Put the stronger partner seconding. This is standard.

Micro-Trax

It doesn't only protect one spot, it protects the leader from a falling second from the time the leader places it until the second cleans it.

Kong Duck is the way bud.

Thanks for responses.

I've been getting a lot of praise for the Duck which I will look into.

Plan is this:

1. Lead out a full rope length.
2. Place Duck.
3. Lead another rope length
4. Place 2nd Duck.
5. Belay/re-rack after 3rd rope length.

Definitely climbing where there is no chance of 2nd falling but always is a chance right? Thought is to mitigate as much risk as possible while still being able to move quickly.

Wild Country Ropeman.

If you're worried about the 2nd falling, you should probably not be simulclimbing that terrain. Placing gear when the 2nd is at the crux will make the situation safer, even better is to build an anchor and belay the 2nd through the crux move.

I approach simulclimbing with the thought that we are soloing, with a very easy transition into roped climbing or belaying if necessary. Hans Florine's book takes about the 2nd needing to be absolutely solid, if there's more than a 1% chance he or she will fall, you belay. I would recommend considering other techniques to increase efficiency and speed to make up for this time spent belaying.

I'm not familiar with the proper use of the devices mentioned above to protect the leader in the event of a 2nd falling, however if it is similar to a ropeman, make sure the leader places a piece above the minitrax/ropeman as this device isn't made to hold your leader in the event he or she falls.

Dan Vinson wrote:Thanks for responses. I've been getting a lot of praise for the Duck which I will look into. Plan is this: 1. Lead out a full rope length. 2. Place Duck. 3. Lead another rope length 4. Place 2nd Duck. 5. Belay/re-rack after 3rd rope length. Definitely climbing where there is no chance of 2nd falling but always is a chance right? Thought is to mitigate as much risk as possible while still being able to move quickly.

Sorry, but this is NOT a way to move quickly. You are only moving together a third of the time, and that is with a full rope out so there will likely be a ton of rope drag. Unless you are ridiculously slow at building anchors, you wasn't be any faster doing this, and may even be slower.

As JeffL said, there are other ways to increase your speed. And it starts with efficiency, particularly at changeovers.

Build the belay quickly and tie in. Call "off belay", or "secure". The second can now eat, tie his shoes, and start taking down part of the belay. Set your autoblock belay device on the master point that is above you. Pull the rope and put your second on belay. Loosen your shoes and grab a bite. If the second has his shit together he will be climbing right away. Take up the slack quickly. If you can't keep up you are doing it wrong. Likely you are not using an autoblock or have set it too low relative to you. Once the second gets to you, the next leader should grab the gear immediately and get ready to climb. Make sure he knows where he's going, then go. No screwing around.

If you are going to simulclimb, do so on terrain that you and your partner almost feel comfortable soloing. And then do so with a short rope. This is key. It keeps the rope drag down and maximizes the time spent moving together.

I'm a mediocre climber but have climbed some routes pretty quickly using these tactics. On terrain that was easy for us, my partner and I climbed the Chief in Squamish via Rambles-Diedre-Butt-Light in an hour and a half. We used a 30m rope and did 3 pitches. By the guidebook, we did something like18 pitches.

With the same partner I did the Beckey-Chouinard in 14 hrs return from Applebee, which is a decent time. It was harder for us so we pitched out the entire thing. At the beginning there were some guys behind us about to get started. They said they would be simulclimbing and asked if they could pass when they caught up to us. We said sure, but then never saw them again until 2 days later back at camp. They had simulclimbed much of the bottom of the route but were still going slower than us.

Tibloc works well and doesn't weigh you down. I've never had a problem using it with lightweight non-oval biners. One thing to keep in mind is that you should clip the whole thing in a way that if you (the leader) fall above the piece with tibloc on, the rope should run over the biner as it would if there were no tibloc (as opposed to clipping in a way that the rope only runs through the tibloc but not the biner itself, and in a fall the rope loads the tibloc as if it were a biner, and probably breaks it).

If you want a picture, go to tibloc technical notice at petzl.com/sfc/servlet.sheph… and see picture 5 (although the setup will be upside down in simulclimbing). What you want is the version on the right, so as to avoid the situation crossed out in picture 7.

Hans wrote: Sorry, but this is NOT a way to move quickly. You are only moving together a third of the time, and that is with a full rope out so there will likely be a ton of rope drag.

Your math is wrong...in the situation described by Dan Vinson, you are moving together half the time. Think it through and you will see that with 2 ducks / microtraxs / etc, you can move through 4 pitches simuling 2, lead belaying 1, follower belaying 1. In fact, it is a bit faster than twice as fast since you belay twice and move through 4 pitches as opposed to twice for each pitch. I did this once on the 3rd with two microtraxs, which is a particularly good route for these kinds of shenanigans. It was nice and quick way to do a reasonably long route in an hour or so where the easiest way off is with a rope and my partner was just shy of soloing confidence.

The Farley wrote:In my humble opinion using a minitraxion is dangerous. I use a grigri. Happy and safe simuling to all…. however you do it.

Is it the teeth on the traxion? A grigri seems suspect with the possibility of the the level being levered open against the rock. Please explain.

Second for the Kong Duck. No teeth to mank your rope like on the tibloc.

amazon.com/Kong-Duck-Rope-C…

Xam wrote: Your math is wrong...in the situation described by Dan Vinson, you are moving together half the time.

Yes, I realized this after I sent it. It's still not a good way to move fast though. The leader has to climb 60m which is typically almost two pitches before the second even gets started. And then dragging 60m of rope and potentially a partner who lacks confidence? Sounds neither fast nor fun. Why bother.

Hans wrote: Yes, I realized this after I sent it. It's still not a good way to move fast though. The leader has to climb 60m which is typically almost two pitches before the second even gets started. And then dragging 60m of rope and potentially a partner who lacks confidence? Sounds neither fast nor fun. Why bother.

To each his own. I had a good time doing the route this way. The third flatiron has maybe 1000ft of easy climbing to a great summit. It was nice doing it in basically one pitch and change in maybe an hour or so as opposed to 3-4 hours pitching it all out. Did it with a 70m and the rope drag was not bad. Better as a solo but it was nice having a partner along. Fast. Fun. My point: the technique works fine in certain situations. But you are probably correct -- true simulclimbing is likely faster in many circumstances.

Xam wrote: To each his own. I had a good time doing the route this way. The third flatiron has maybe 1000ft of easy climbing to a great summit. It was nice doing it in basically one pitch and change in maybe an hour or so as opposed to 3-4 hours pitching it all out. Did it with a 70m and the rope drag was not bad. Better as a solo but it was nice having a partner along. Fast. Fun. My point: the technique works fine in certain situations.

But the OP is talking about simuling only 3 rope lengths on a long rope, on routes he described as having "complex terrain".

The Flatiron is basically a bunch of really easy fifth up a low angle slab. Not really the same thing. It sounds like you are basically soloing and using the tiblocs or whatever to be able to drag a second up the route who is a weaker climber.

I completely agree with JeffL, that if you are worried about the second falling then you probably shouldn't be simulclimbing that terrain.

I think of it like this: simuling is soloing, where you are saving time by not untying, flaking, packing the rope, then unpacking.

One thing no one is mentioning RE Tibloc / Mini or Microtrax / Duck / whatever, is that slack in the sling connecting the pro to the device can allow the device to rise "above" the pro. In such a case, the second weighting the rope will weight the first until such weight pulls down the device and eliminates the slack. This could be enough to yank the leader off their stance. Sorry this explanation is clunky, hopefully y'all are picking up what I'm laying down.

Sure it's better than nothing, but realizing this has made me a lot more sober RE the safety introduced by such a device.

Also in terms of Tibloc vs Micro/Mini, realize they both function by using teeth and therefore shredding concerns exist for both.

Dude, Kong Duck!!!! No teeth on the device. Works magnificently. Hayden Kennedy showed them to my buddy in Yosemite this spring. He went out the next week and bought six of them. We the next week we simul climbed all but the last two pitches of Syke's Sickle and the next day we simulclimbed the North Ridge in two hours, used them on both routes, it was just phenomenal. Simul climbing with a somewhat secure counter-weight belay for both persons was just awesome.

The caveat is that my buddy is pretty wealthy, and so buying six ducks at $69 a piece wasn't a big deal for him