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Too much "beta" on MP... losing sense of adventure

Original Post
Crackhack · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0

I admit, I'm older than the average climber on MP and I'm also becoming a technophobe, but MP seems to be transforming the climbing experience into paint-by-numbers. In case some of you young lads don't know what paint-by-numbers is... oh, never mind.

Not sure if this please-spew-some-beta-pic-included post is a troll or not, but it feels like a slippery slope to be discussing move-by-move beta. That thread doesn't reference a specific route but at some point it'll probably happen.

Where's the sense of adventure? I feel like beta is a drug these days... once you try it, you need more and there are plenty of people willing to give it to you. Now we need to know exactly where the belay anchors are, whether it's bolted/trad, how much sun the route gets, what color the rock is, whether to wear shorts, how many granola bars you'll need, etc.

Granted there is beta worth having but "beyond the guidebook" is not necessarily a good thing. I say we all try abstaining from MP beta and get lost and have a little adventure every once in awhile. Done ranting. Gonna hang out at supertopo for awhile.

marty funkhouser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 20
Crackhack wrote:Gonna hang out at supertopo for awhile.
I laughed
goingUp · · over here · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 30

Personally I cant fathom climbing something not knowing how many granola bars I am going to need. First ascentionists who did this, especially while not knowing the color of the rock are real gods violating every law of physics I can think of.
sorry I get your point but couldn't resist,

There are also plenty of routes that beta allows more people to enjoy them safely as a result. i.e knowing how to rap off the top of Mickey Mouse wall, or ensuring one is on the proper route of a 7+ pitch meandering climb that has a 5.8 near a 12+. Or if success and or safety will be found or an R-X situation is to be avoided.
Most of the time Beta is great. The beauty of it is you have the ability of reading and finding it, or not. You can always stop looking and reading beta and just go climb.

teece303 · · Highlands Ranch, CO · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 596
  • You* don't need to read any beta you don't want to.

So what really bothers you is that others *do* want beta, presumably. Huh. That tells us something about you... but not much else.

Just go climb. Or read the Taco, whatevs, it's all the same, right?
Crackhack · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0
teece303 wrote:*You* don't need to read any beta you don't want to. So what really bothers you is that others *do* want beta, presumably. Huh. That tells us something about you... but not much else. Just go climb. Or read the Taco, whatevs, it's all the same, right?
Hey now, if that was a personal jab, unnecessary. Just making a hopefully entertaining observation. It's not necessarily about others needing excessive beta, it's probably more about the diminishing sense of adventure, self-reliance and problem-solving. The more you do, the better you get. It's an encouragement (admittedly maybe not worded in the best way) for people to just get out and make the discovery part of the fun. That's all.
Paul Hutton · · Nephi, UT · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 740

The message I would personally like to pass to other climbers is to please stop shouting what moves to look out for while I'm hanging and resting, unless I ASK! Know-it-alls........I like to do things my way. Save the advice for when I'm caught doing something unsafely.

Tony Monbetsu · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 616
Paul Hutton wrote:The message I would personally like to pass to other climbers is to please stop shouting what moves to look out for while I'm hanging and resting, unless I ASK! Know-it-alls........I like to do things my way. Save the advice for when I'm caught doing something unsafely.
Definitely agree with this! Having beta online where people can choose to look or not look at it is fine, advice while climbing isn't unless it's specifically asked for. This applies to the actual climbing only, for me- I'm a beginner and I do appreciate help with safety and procedures, but let me try to figure out the moves myself.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

5 years ago I was told to go fuck myself when I suggested to someone here that they didnt need to describe every move and gear placement to a tee on one of the states most classic trad lines.

I'm fine with it for a boulder or a sport route and I can understand the guy was really excited 'cause he had just led it and it was all fresh in his mind but not many trad climbers in the 5.11 and up category ask for anything besides what gear to bring and dont want to be sprayed down before sending

Paul H · · Pennsylvania · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 5

I like having info about approaches, anchors, descent methods, etc - but draw the line at needing beta for the moves.

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
teece303 wrote:*You* don't need to read any beta you don't want to.
Substitute "clip any bolt" for "read any beta". This lame rationalization doesn't work in either case. They are both instances of dumbing down a climb - not every climb needs to ne.
teece303 · · Highlands Ranch, CO · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 596

You are correct, you can also skip the bolts.

Don't be a Sheldon Cooper:

"I had to leave: they were having fun wrong."

Andrew Gram · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 3,725

Why not just go further out into the boonies? I'm still finding 300+' high wingate desert towers that are unclimbed, and i've been reading stories about how there is nothing significant left to do in the desert for 10 years.

Mountainproject does detract from the sense of adventure in a well documented place like Eldo, but if you are looking for an information free adventure I would argue that somewhere like Eldo is not the right place.

steve edwards · · SLC, UT · Joined May 2004 · Points: 645

This is actually (since it's also great troll fodder) a good subject. It's always been the main issue with climbing guides, too. As both a climbing guide author and a access worker who has negotiated with land use managers, there is a very important reason to have recorded information about climbing areas on public land. One of the main one climbers tend to forget is that if access ever does come under threat, holding a historical use chart is one of the biggest negotiating tools we have. There are certainly very good reasons for keeping climbing quiet, especially when way off the radar, but anything that is getting used regularly, and wants to stay that way, should be recorded somewhere. And, of course, once that happens that cat is out of the bad. How do you control how much info is out there? Shoot, go to a popular crag and figure out how to not have the local "I've got everything so wired I can climb it blindfolded" not shout beta at you.

Anyway, here's the solution:

Don't read it. It's pretty simply, really.

Mountain Project could help. There are actually pretty good right now. Most of the need-to info is on top, such as how to find a cliff. Most of this beta you speak of is in the comments. If you don't read the comments you're mainly already.

One this they could do. They try, as access comments move up now, is separating them into access-related comments and beta comments below. That would make it even easier not to read.

Why have beta comments at all? Well, they, too, are important for access at some level. Sometimes they are spewing hold beta, etc, but mainly they are tricks to keep you safe. Stuff you might want to take. How safe it is to rap with a certain size cord, etc. This stuff may bust your bubble but most people don't want to die climbing. And, in fact, most land use management do not want you to die or get hurt climbing either. That is probably their number one concern, because it makes their life difficult. Yes, there is history, animal issues, etc, as well but nothing puts their life into cross hairs like people dying and causing a media ruckus in an area that's their job to control. Think about it. Do you want this kind of interference in your job?

As soon a a cliff turns into a consistent rescue concern you have access issues. And that is never a good situation for anybody. If you happen to be in Yosemite, which has, you know, some history. Then you can probably keep your right to climb there--albeit with a lot of pain-in-the-ass regulation. If you're off the radar, with not historical significance, access is more-or-less done. So, anyway, all this "spewing" has a point, and is ultimately important for the sport. But I do agree, it gets to be a bit much. I have to force myself to stop reading sometime. That said, when something is dicey and, perhaps, pushing my limit, I'll take whatever videos or whatnot I can find to help me wussify my ascent all I can.

Trycycle · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 699

too much beta. not enough beta. the grades are too hard. the grades are too soft. i hate dogs. i hate kids. i love dogs. i love kids. i hate bolts. sport climbing is the best. tick marks are cheating. i remember when crash pads didn't exist. aid climbing is rad. the 60s where the best. the crag is too crowded. the gym is too expensive. where did the dirt-bags go. how come i can't climb harder. its easier because you're taller. its easier because you're shorter.

"Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit!"
-as said by Sarah Marshall in Forgetting Sarah Marshall

Climbers are THE WORST.

Jonathan Dull · · Boone, NC · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 415
MJMobes wrote: I'm fine with it for a boulder or a sport route and I can understand the guy was really excited 'cause he had just led it and it was all fresh in his mind but not many trad climbers in the 5.11 and up category ask for anything besides what gear to bring and dont want to be sprayed down before sending
Sounds about right to me.
JohnnyG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 10

I see the beta more as a fun thing to read about after climb. Relive it a little when I'm back at the desk. See what other people found.

In all, it's not that useful *before* going to climb something.

Sean Foster · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 2,145
Crackhack wrote:Not sure if this please-spew-some-beta-pic-included post is a troll or not
Not a troll. I know him, he later emailed me with the picture, that's my video later in the thread. It's all real. He's on a mission this season to send all the 10's at that crag and he's stuck on this one.

He's methodical, thinking analytically. He's different than you, maybe, and going about this in his way. His sense of adventure is alive and well, though. It happens to include caution and planning. We all do it differently.

I think I get your message here. Let's all get offline and get out there and make our own adventure. It's romantic. I like it.

It's not for everyone or every situation.

In this case, it was the day after not sending. It's fresh in his mind. So fresh, it can be turned into an equation. HOW DO I SOLVE THIS PUZZLE! I've been there, turning moves over in my mind again and again. He had better luck reaching out to a local than hypothesizing with the hive mind. Lesson learned, maybe.

This Saturday, though, he'll send. And, with that, he'll be one step closer to his goal. May the 2014 Barn Bluff 5.10 challenge end in glory, Pontoon!
Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236

I agree with Andrew Gram .There is lots of adventure in places like the San Rafeal Swell or other remote areas even with the descriptions found on MP.Possible more adventure than most of todays climbers can handle.

teece303 · · Highlands Ranch, CO · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 596

"Where is the sense of adventure?"

It is important to remember that we all can climb for whatever reason we want.

While it used to be all about a sense of adventure to most climbers (I'm not that young, so I remember that a little bit better than some), it is NOT any more. At least not for everybody.

And that's fine. There is no "slippery slope." Unless we are talking issues of ethics (which in this thread we are not), to each their own.

MP is pretty much a beta site. So...

Make sure you don't lapse into the lazy habit of telling people how to have fun (and shouting at kids to get off your lawn... ;-) ).

Whenever you start a line of thought that begins with some variation of "these days" or "back in my day" it's probably just best to shelve that thinking. Well, it's fine to tell the kids the history: for sure. Do that.

But don't be the veteran climber that lectures the kids about how they do it wrong. It's a cliche that's as old as time and has been wrong since its inception.

That said: adventure climbing is fun! And sometimes terryfying. If you've never tried it, kids, you should! You might like it. Leave the guidebook and phone at home one of these days. Or go find a crag to develop!

Ahmed IbnHabibjan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 65
Mike Gilbert · · Bend, OR · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 21

Don't look much at mountain project if you don't want beta is how I play it.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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