Belaying two lead climbers with a BD ATC Guide

2 lead climbers? Yes, it's time for my lead climber to get some help with placement and route assessment. So the idea is she will be able to climb with someone who has a lot of trad experience. I envision that they would simul-climb, and that I could belay both of them on separate ropes from the ground.

As long as one does not race ahead of the other I think I can manage this pretty well. The challenge will be to not get too much slack out there, and of course, should both of them fall at the same time I would probably get to go to Disney again.

Has anyone else committed this insanity and are there any gotcha's that I am missing?

Putting her on TR to place gear would be a much better way to do this.

Amazing!

Edit: It's highly unlikely you would find someone with "lots of trad experience" that would be willing to do this (be one of two leaders).

Wow, given the IMMEDIATE negative feedback I will no do this.

Tried lots of stuff, TR placement, placed then rapped to discuss, pictures from the second. She's getting most of it, but I really need to find an experienced (in other words not me) climber to discuss placement WHILE she is placing it.

The idea of the better climber self belaying (jugging) works. Gotta find someone with that much patience.

When you're most likely to place shitty gear, most likely to panic, most likely to fall... Probably not the time to be on a belay setup that's most likely to kill you.

(Though if you do try it, please post a video.)

Looking forward to this Friday's rock and ice "Weekend Whipper."....

But in all seriousness this is an awful idea for so many reasons and I would seriously not try this at all.

The fact that this other "experienced" trad leader is willing to do this makes me seriously question their judgment, regardless of the amount of experience they may have. The fact that you thought this up and didn't see the inherent dangers of the plan makes me question whether you are really in a position to be mentoring a new climber.

Read books, hire a guide, take a class, find a mentor; however you choose to do it, go learn a bunch more before you get all three of you killed.

Yup, as others have said, this is not the way to go.

Moreover, there are really several learning issues involved. One of them is about adequate placements. Much of this can be learned as well or better in ground school, bounce testing with an aider.

Another excellent way, often recommended, is top-roped aid climbing. This allows the climber to bounce test every piece (remember to look away while actually bouncing!) It has the significant advantage that the leader learns just a bit about aid climbing and so will be much more able to get out of trouble. It is also likely to force the climber into finding placements when they don't have the ideal piece, which is a very good skill to have when actually leading. Moreover, you can play games like not allowing the largest stoppers so that nuts have to be placed sideways, or (for certain terrains) banning cams. The aspiring leader can also safely work with very small pro, which in spite of things often said can be important and effective on moderate routes. After the lead, simul-rapping with an experienced person to get commentary on the placements (and better alternatives) completes the process.

Ok, that handles placements, but doesn't deal with many other issues involved in leading. I can think of seven more offhand. Obviously, only the briefest of comments are possible here.

(1) Psychological issues: dealing with pressure and anxiety. Emotions tend to make people rush and skip essential placements or allow themselves to be satisfied with inadequate ones. One has to exert conscious control over natural stampeding tendencies.

(2) Clipping issues. You don't want carabiners loaded over an edge, so may have to thread slings in some cases. If something about the rock configuration looks like it might open a carabiner gate, use a locker or double up.

(3) Redundancy issues: knowing when to get in more than a single piece. Especially if you are a beginning leader, don't let some snotty light-is-right fanatic talk you into heading up with a minimal rack. When you are learning and your judgement cannot possibly be very good, redundancy is your best bet for coming back in one piece. But you have to have the gear to do it, and you have to do it in a way that doesn't use up too much gear and doesn't create rope drag---see Item (4). Redundancy can apply to slings and draws as well. If a piece is truly mission-critical, consider clipping with two quickdraws with both sets of gates on opposite sides. Or carry a quickdraw or two with lockers on both sides and use that.

(4) Rope management issues: avoiding drag, guarding against nuts lifting. Sometimes you just can't make a placement because it will create too much drag, but almost all the time the solution is long slings. One of the noticeable differences between experienced and inexperienced leaders is that you'll see an experienced leader climb down every now and then to lengthen a sling and so prevent drag from stopping them dead (double entendre intended) higher up.

I think unexpected zippering is the most common error experienced climbers make, so that means preventing it is especially hard to learn. Make sure a ground belayer is up against the wall and not standing back, but even so try to get in an early multi-directional piece. The idea sometimes floated that a cam in a vertical crack will rotate 180 degrees upward and hold is a dangerous fantasy you do not want to have tested---moving cams are even more unpredictable than stationary cams. Good directional pieces either need to be in horizontal cracks or else anchored down in some way.

The rope also has to be managed at belays so that it doesn't tangle and doesn't get hung up.

(5) Protecting the second. One of the weakest skills in the new leader's arsenal, but every now and then someone gets quite good and is still clueless in this regard (I'm sorry to say I've been on the receiving end of this type of incompetence far too often). The leader has a deep moral obligation to do everything possible to protect the second. The leader gets to choose the level of risk they want to confront, but the second is forced to endure the risk imposed by the leader. The leader has to go the extra mile, put in the extra effort, do whatever it takes to make sure their second is not going to take a swing with dangerous wall or ledge impact. If the leader has to make a long easy traverse (like walking across a ledge to a belay), the leader needs to build something on the order of a belay anchor over the second to make sure that pivot point is absolutely bombproof. I can't count the number of times I've seen this violated.

(6) Building a belay anchor. Plenty of stuff about this on the internet. Perhaps the main issue is doing it with all deliberate speed, because many climbers are maddeningly slow at this. (However, every climber, no matter how experienced, will sometimes require a lot of time to set up a trustworthy anchor).

(7) Retreat strategies when things aren't working out.

This is a hell of a lot more than just getting placements right, and much of it does have to be done in some practice leading situation---after the aspiring leader is already ok at placing gear in non-leading situations.

For advice on all this other stuff, by far the best set-up is an experienced climber jugging next to the leader. And close too, because you really want the experienced climber to be able to intervene. The aspiring leader temporarily clips into the jugs via a prearranged tether so that they can actually absorb what the jugging leader is saying. For instance, it isn't at all uncommon for the aspiring leader to miss, by a long shot, the best placement and make do with a marginal one. (This is especially true when the aspiring leader settles for a small cam when much better cam or nut placements can be made.) You want to be able to have them remove the crappy piece and place a better one. For at least part of that process, you'd really like to have them clipped in.

Ok, I know what everyone is thinking: no one has ever been taught this way. Not true, but perhaps nearly true, And yes, some of us learned all by ourselves, but some of the folks who went that route are dead or permanently incapacitated as a consequence, and you only hear how wonderful that method is from the ones who lucked out. Part of the reason why there are many more incompetent leaders out there (most of who have no idea of their own incompetence) than there needs to be is because folks aren't learning the full complement of necessary skills, thinking they're good to go once they can place gear that doesn't fall out as they climb past it.

BITD, people started leading and following easy climbs, and built their leading skills in parallel with their climbing skills. Gyms and, to an extent, sport climbing have completely undone that connection, and many climbers are "too good" to put in the time on easy climbs that would have allowed them to acquire items (1)--(7) safely and enjoyably. This means the kind of unlikely teaching scenario I described above is considerably more important now than it would have been many years ago. Good luck finding someone to do it for you, with or without pay!

I think a final comment is in order. Trad leading is risky, and risk is an integral part of the trad experience. Performing safely in the face of intrinsic dangers is what makes trad climbing trad, not what you are clipping into. I feel as if a lot of aspiring trad leaders don't get this, especially if they are coming over from gym or sport leading, which in most (but certainly not all!) cases is exciting top-roping. Folks like to pooh-pooh the old-fashioned "leader must not fall" commandment of bygone days, but almost all trad leads have sections where the leader really must not fall. And other sections where the result is going to be very bad if some of the gear doesn't hold. Aspiring trad leaders need to know this and find the prospect attractive and exciting---they need to be going into the realm with their eyes wide open to the potential dangers. You don't have to do this. Make sure you know what you are taking on.

On my first trad lead the "experienced trad leader" free-soloed next to me while watching my placements.

Still safer than what you've suggested.

Is there a difference between jugging and jumaring? I understand that jumaring is ascending a rope with hand ascenders, and using foot slings to get your legs involved in the haul. I used to call it jugging, then thought I was incorrect and now call it jumaring with confidence.

Belaying for 2 lead climbers? I believe one can be vigilant enough while belaying for sport climbers, provided the first bolts on each route are close enough, so as to keep the rope as vertical as possible from the belayer and the first bolt. I could see one sport climber getting an unexpected tug on his rope as the belayer gets jerked off the ground, away from the climber that still clings to the rock. Communication between one belayer and two sport climbers could also be a bit chaotic. This is a significant jump toward risky when you're trying to weigh hazards with recreation. I've obviously never attempted this, which I indicate by phrasing my forethoughts and opinions with "can be; could see; could also be." I'd probably be willing to check that box, though! Can't be much different than working a two-strand rappel. You'd better get the diameters of the two ropes as close to the same as possible. I wouldn't look to use a 10.2 with the recently-released Petzl Volta 9.2 (which I just got for myself and took a good 10-15ft whipper on).

Does she even know your plans for her?

Dallas R wrote: Tried lots of stuff, TR placement, placed then rapped to discuss, pictures from the second. She's getting most of it, but I really need to find an experienced (in other words not me) climber to discuss placement WHILE she is placing it.

All those things seem great and are I think more than most of us got. As usual rgold gives a great answer above, but in a nutshell the general recipe is a mixture of
-follow a lot of pitches and clean a lot of placements
-practice on the ground with someone who knows from experience what a bomber placement looks like
-lead a lot of easy stuff that there's no chance you could fall on, and then get scolded sternly by your mentor when he/she cleans the pitch and tells you how lethal all of your gear was and scares the crap out of you

This directly-supervised-on-the-sharp-end concept that you've got is not inherently bad, but it's not how the vast majority (everyone up until now, maybe?) of climbers learn how to lead. The fact that you're wanting it (combined with the simultaneous leaders/one belayer concept) makes me think that all this is trying to patch (with respect) a very significant experience gap on both of your parts that would be much more safely addressed by linking up with some more experienced climbers.

I guess I'd add that having her set a bunch of TR's (on gear) under your watchful eye is a good way to make her "put her money down" on placements that have to be bomber, as well as dealing with direction of pull, loads over edges, potential swings for the climber, etc. However, (and I apologize if I'm making too big a deal about it) your idea of belaying two leaders at once makes me worry that YOU may also need someone with watchful eyes on you...what if the two of you spent a day building anchors with a guide?

In Nigel Shepherd's "Complete Guide to Rope Techniques" there's a whole section where he recommends and discusses the technique of have an experienced leader TR solo alongside a new leader to evaluate placements, rope drag, etc. He also shows a quick, easy method of rescuing the new leader if he gets in over his head.

Way better, IMO, than the method you proposed.

Optimistic wrote:.. your idea of belaying two leaders at once makes me worry that YOU may also need someone with watchful eyes on you...

Yes I do, I freely admit to being new at the sport, and therefore I do not have all the tools and experience that others have. This is why I explore ideas and study different techniques before I apply them on the rock.

As far as finding guides and more experienced climbers that has been tough for us. We travel around and so are not in an area long enough to establish relationships with good climbers who are willing to spend time with us.

Our experiences with guides have not been real great either. They were more interested in getting us on the rock than instructing.

We will be climbing on Enchanted Rock Tue and Thur. Anyone interested?

One of the best posts I've ever seen on the subject and worth an immediate bump. In case anyone glossed over this due to its length or "at-first-glance" verbosity, do yourself a favor and read it again carefully. Better yet, print it out and tape it into the back of your favorite guidebook.

rgold wrote:Yup, as others have said, this is not the way to go. Moreover, there are really several learning issues involved. One of them is about adequate placements. Much of this can be learned as well or better in ground school, bounce testing with an aider. Another excellent way, often recommended, is top-roped aid climbing. This allows the climber to bounce test every piece (remember to look away while actually bouncing!) It has the significant advantage that the leader learns just a bit about aid climbing and so will be much more able to get out of trouble. It is also likely to force the climber into finding placements when they don't have the ideal piece, which is a very good skill to have when actually leading. Moreover, you can play games like not allowing the largest stoppers so that nuts have to be placed sideways, or (for certain terrains) banning cams. The aspiring leader can also safely work with very small pro, which in spite of things often said can be important and effective on moderate routes. After the lead, simul-rapping with an experienced person to get commentary on the placements (and better alternatives) completes the process. Ok, that handles placements, but doesn't deal with many other issues involved in leading. I can think of seven more offhand. Obviously, only the briefest of comments are possible here. (1) Psychological issues: dealing with pressure and anxiety. Emotions tend to make people rush and skip essential placements or allow themselves to be satisfied with inadequate ones. One has to exert conscious control over natural stampeding tendencies. (2) Clipping issues. You don't want carabiners loaded over an edge, so may have to thread slings in some cases. If something about the rock configuration looks like it might open a carabiner gate, use a locker or double up. (3) Redundancy issues: knowing when to get in more than a single piece. Especially if you are a beginning leader, don't let some snotty light-is-right fanatic talk you into heading up with a minimal rack. When you sre learning and your judgement cannot possibly be very good, redundancy is your best bet for coming back in one piece. But you have to have the gear to do it, and you have to do it in a way that doesn't use up too much gear and doesn't create rope drag---see Item (4). Redundancy can apply to slings and draws as well. If a piece is truly mission-critical, consider clipping with two quickdraws with both sets of gates on opposite sides. Or carry a quickdraw or two with lockers on both sides and use that. (4) Rope management issues: avoiding drag, guarding against nuts lifting. Sometimes you just can make a placement because it will create too much drag, but almost all the time the solution is long slings. One of the noticeable differences between experienced and inexperienced leaders is that you'll see an experienced leader climb down every now and then to lengthen a sling and so prevent drag from stopping them dead (double entendre intended) higher up. I think unexpected zippering is the most common error experienced climbers make, so that means preventing it is especially hard to learn. Make sure a ground belayer is up against the wall and not standing back, but even so try to get in an early multi-directional piece. The idea sometimes floated that a cam in a vertical crack will rotate 180 degrees upward and hold is a dangerous fantasy you do not want to have tested---moving cams are even more unpredictable than stationary cams. Good directional pieces either need to be in horizontal cracks or else anchored down in some way. Rope also has to be managed at belays so that it doesn't tangle and doesn't get hung up. (5) Protecting the second. One of the weakest skills in the new leader's arsenal, but every now and then someone gets quite good and is still clueless in this regard (I'm sorry to say I've been on the receiving end of this type of incompetence far too often). The leader has a deep moral obligation to do everything possible to protect the second. The leader gets to choose the level of risk they want to confront, but the second is forced to endure the risk imposed by the leader. The leader has to go the extra mile, put in the extra effort, do whatever it takes to make sure their second is not going to take a swing with dangerous wall or ledge impact. If the leader has to make a long easy traverse (like walking across a ledge to a belay), the leader needs to build something on the order of a belay anchor over the second to make sure that pivot point is absolutely bombproof. I can't count the number of times I've seen this violated. (6) Building a belay anchor. Plenty of stuff about this on the internet. Perhaps the main issue is doing it with all deliberate speed, because many climbers are maddeningly slow at this. (However, every climber, no matter how experienced, will sometimes require a lot of time to set up a trustworthy anchor). (7) Retreat strategies when things aren't working out. This is a hell of a lot more than just getting placements right, and much of it does have to be done in some practice leading situation---after the aspiring leader is already ok at placing gear in non-leading situations. For advice on all this other stuff, by far the best set-up is an experienced climber jugging next to the leader. And close too, because you really want the experienced climber to be able to intervene. The aspiring leader temporarily clips into the jugs via a prearranged tether so that they can actually absorb what the jugging leader is saying. For instance, it isn't at all uncommon for the aspiring leader to miss, by a long shot, the best placement and make do with a marginal one. (This is especially true when the aspiring leader settles for a small cam when much better cam or nut placements can be made.) You want to be able to have them remove the crappy piece and place a better one. For at least part of that process, you'd really like to have them clipped in. Ok, I know what everyone is thinking: no one has ever been taught this way. Not true, but perhaps nearly true, And yes, some of us learned all by ourselves, but some of the folks who went that route are dead or permanently incapacitated as a consequence, and you only hear how wonderful that method is from the ones who lucked out. Part of the reason why there are many more incompetent leaders out there (most of who have no idea of their own incompetence) than there needs to be is because folks aren't learning the full complement of necessary skills, thinking they're good to go once they can place gear that doesn't fall out as they climb past it. BITD, people started leading and following easy climbs, and built their leading skills in parallel with their climbing skills. Gyms and, to an extent, sport climbing have completely undone that connection, and many climbers are "too good" to put in the time on easy climbs that would have allowed them to acquire items (1)--(7) safely and enjoyably. This means the kind of unlikely teaching scenario I described above is considerably more important now than it would have been many years ago. Good luck finding someone to do it for you, with or without pay! I think a final comment is in order. Trad leading is risky, and risk is an integral part of the trad experience. Performing safely in the face of intrinsic dangers is what makes trad climbing trad, not what you are clipping into. I feel as if a lot of aspiring trad leaders don't get this, especially if they are coming over from gym or sport leading, which in most (but certainly not all!) cases is exciting top-roping. Folks like to pooh-pooh the old-fashioned "leader must not fall" commandment of bygone days, but almost all trad leads have sections, where the leader really must not fall. And other sections where the result is going to be very bad if some of the gear doesn't hold. Aspiring trad leaders need to know this and find the prospect attractive and exciting---they need to be going into the realm with their eyes wide open to the potential dangers. You don't have to do this. Make sure you know what you are taking on.

Dylan B. wrote:This is a terrible idea and you shouldn't do it. But if you do, consider using an Apine Smart or a MegaJul which at least have assited braking for when one leader falls while you're fumbling with the other's brake strand.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO! Never rely on "assisted" to braking to save you from stupidity. Probably better to just go with your initial, darwinistic plan where you know you must keep hands on both the brake strands ;)

Great stuff as usual, rgold. Appreciate the time it took to pen it.

In addition, even though he said he's not going to do it, and seeing that several people have already said it's a terrible idea...because I'm a total moron, I'm going to say "wow, WUt a dumb idea!11! DOn't do it, dew you want to kill yourr family climberze?!"

Keep it up guys, only need like 15 more identical pointless posts.

If you find yourself in the Boulder area you could look into this option: mountainproject.com/v/bette…

Awesome troll.

Well played sir.