Tying Cordelette directly through Bolt Hangers?

There are pictures of similar setups with webbing and water knots in John Long's anchor book. I don't remember whether it specified that it was for bailing or at all recommended for top roping.

Personally, if I was bailing I would do it. Top-roping, I would just use 2 lockers.

Oh, and don't use the American Death Triangle!

Yarp wrote:That's cool Jon. I don't mind if you do that. I hope you don't mind if I tell you to STFU if you start offering me unsolicited advice because you think what I'm doing is "wrong". Most climbers that I know that really have their shit together don't offer advice unless you ask for it. If you do, they are always more than happy to share and I appreciate it. On the other hand the next time I have a dude with his gym pass clipped to his harness tell me my solo aid anchor is upside down I'm going to punch them in the face.

I'm OK with that.

I used to think that it was my responsibility as a more experienced climber and a guide to speak up when I saw something unsafe going on. Then I realized that if I stuck my nose in every time I saw some moron doing the death dance, I'd never get any climbing in!

The sad reality is that a shit ton of people out there have no fucking business climbing away from the relative safety of their gym, and if you climb enough you are going to run into them pretty often.

Although I often want to punch them in the face, I usually just find somewhere else to climb and hope that I don't hear their face punching the ground.

Thought some actual measurements might be interesting to post here, so I did some pull testing this afternoon:

Loops of 7mm cord tied directly through a hanger broke at around 2000 pounds. If the loops were attached to carabiners instead of the hanger they broke at around 3000 pounds.

I also tied a loop of 7mm cord directly through a hanger and pulled it to 600 pounds and released the load. I repeated this with the same loop 35 times without changing where the hanger was contacting the loop. The sheath of the cord did not fray, and the six individual cords of the core did not have noticeable damage.

My thoughts:

Is tying cord directly to the hangers the best practice for toprope setups? No.

Is doing this a guaranteed recipe for anchor failure? Probably not.

brenta wrote:Theodor, is it you?

Yes. Your dialectical dreams have been realized! Down with the moral lackeys of the enlightenment!

Edit to add: Thanks for the pull tests, Geir.

Yarp wrote:On the other hand the next time I have a dude with his gym pass clipped to his harness tell me my solo aid anchor is upside down I'm going to punch them in the face.

Well, you know, it is upside down. Just sayin'.

Toby B wrote:There's no way that retying a double fisherman's every time you build a anchor is faster than clipping two biners, though. Regarding the Euro guy forming an American death triangle with a daisy chain--isn't this exactly the sort of situation in which we should be a little more insistent than normal? If it's just some guy who won't listen to reason endangering himself, by all means walk away. If he's putting kids at risk though, isn't there a somewhat higher burden on knowledgeable people to try and talk sense into him? Those kids are just trusting their dad.

That is a good point but in my defense I was myself a little new to climbing (experienced enough to know that the american death triangle with a daisy chain was bad). I was also about 21 and he was at least 15 years my senior so I was a tad apprehensive about trying to argue with him. Fast forward 5 years and one child of my own and I think I wouldn't be so reserved.

Geir wrote:Thought some actual measurements might be interesting to post here, so I did some pull testing this afternoon...

Thanks for doing some testing, but I notice that hanger looks like the wider rappel-type. Did you happen to test the thin steel hangers as well? I would be much more concerned about those than the rappel hangers.

I'm not upset Ryan. I'm just stating my opinion. Pretty directly I think. I'm not angry or mistaken about which retarded internet climbing site I'm posting to. Everyone knows the name of this site is summit post.

Geir, I think I love you, nerding out and all that. Thanks for putting forth actual information into the discussion!

Geir, sweet tests thank you! FWIW, they were FIXE hangers, so it looks like your test represented the situation well. Thanks again.

Wow super informative and fun to read/look at, post @Geir thanks! Funny how things posted years ago are still helping people learn.

Jim A wrote: Thanks for doing some testing, but I notice that hanger looks like the wider rappel-type. Did you happen to test the thin steel hangers as well? I would be much more concerned about those than the rappel hangers.

def not wide rap hangers. I made the picture easier to see

I would think this falls into the blackdiamondequipment.com/e… type of test. Is it ideal? No. Is it going to kill you? Likely No. Do you have a better setup you can get for really cheap? Yes.

Malcolm Daly wrote:No discussion necessary. This is a really bad idea.

haha yeah I'm surprised the thread kept going (as I keep it going). I wouldn't use the hanger end of a draw on soft goods, so I'm certainly not going to run soft goods through a hanger. I know my draws aren't hardened steel, but they also don't see the consistent use that the hangers get. Plus the long term wear on the cord and not being able to see if you got any type of shavings in the cord isn't worth it.

Unless I'm desperate to get off something it's not worth trusting my life to a setup like this.

And although I'm responding to people's comments from years ago, I'd politely tell someone that they are going to die. haha. I've gotten some bad stares, and whatever comments, but there have a been a few people that were like "oh sh*t" because they were oblivious to potential grave errors. Also I love it when sh*tty MP members just go away.

two pages to determine that that is probably a bad idea?!

I sincerely hope I don't encounter the people who are saying this is a "fine" or "alright" idea

use ya damn carabiners!!!!!!!

Wait what? how did the last 2 of you come to that conclusion after seein gthe pull tests?

Sure, they probably aren't totally reproducible and they are just a few data points but I haven't seen any evidence or anectdotes otherwise. The pulls were reasonably close, 2000lbf is still a lot!!! You don't want that transmitted into your body for sure!

I can personally think of one webbing directly through hanger setup that has been in place for years! It is really kind of obscene but it is the quadruple bolted, equalized, and isolated webbing at the bird perch as you exit Heap's canyon.

Seems less lazy than this, jive-assanchors.com/2014/10…, but just as jive-ass.

As an aside, tying cord directly to the eyelets of pitons to build belays is very common in the Alps. On most multi-pitch alpine climbs, the "permanent" belay anchors are usually a couple of pitons (blades and angles mostly) all connected with cord to 1 or 2 hardware-store quick links. The cord is usually single strand with a barrel knot at each end. Sketchy to my eyes, but the euros seem to be fine with it and anchors aren't failing left and right. What do I know, I just go climbing.

GLD wrote:Wait what? how did the last 2 of you come to that conclusion after seein gthe pull tests?

Because that is just one test is a somewhat controlled environment. In this case I'm sure those guys make a habit of doing this. Or maybe they forgot their carabiners, but based on hangers I've seen and how they are used, I would still never put my soft goods (gross haha) through them unless I had to.

It's good to know that it holds alot of weight...but that's with hand picked hangers laying on the ground. What if one hanger was slightly sharper or your cord was old? I'll assume these are commonly used anchors back in 2011. I'm sure they could do this completely safely, but let's say this is common practice. Are they changing or watching that cord more often than if it ran through their own gear?

Climbing has a ton of risk and what ifs...personally my goal is to mitigate them any place I can. Just IMHO.

I often disregard actual detailed evidence from tests with small sample sizes in favor of my personal opinion and feelings of "should" and "probably" without any actual testing data.