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Gunks Climbers, You May Find This Of Interest

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

It's true, the Gunks section is among the best ones on MP, thanks to Julie's ongoing hard and unappreciated work.

But its also true that it can't compete with the advantages of the app, at least not in my opinion. And the advantages I'm thinking of have little to do with the accuracy question, which I'd agree is not a significant issue for the MP site. What I'm trying to say is that the app has advantages that make it attractive, but you don't go out and buy it to compensate for real or perceived inaccuracy in MP.

Christian Fracchia · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 80

Hi Ron, I am sorry that you tried to contact us and did not receive a response. I just made a fix to the contact form on gunksapps.com there was a glitch which may have been the reason we did not receive your message(s). I also added our direct email address to that page. Please feel free to respond to us directly with any concerns or ideas at gunksapps@gmail.com We will have a Gunks Apps table set-up this Friday 7pm (10/10) at the Millbrook slideshow at the Mohonk Preserve visitors center. We will also have a table at the New Paltz film festival (10/11). Both Tom and I will be there, so if you or anyone else is at either event please stop by and we will listen to your feedback and gladly answer any of your questions.
Thanks!
CFrac

Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
Brian wrote: Are you not aware of MP Forums or new to MP? 1) Most threads on MP are preposterous and if not so then quickly turn preposterous. 2) All threads eventually wander far off topic. 3) If you take yourself too seriously on these forums you will be very frustrated. 4) One positive thing about MP forums is that Supertopo forums are worse.
+2,502,395

If you want a product posted without ANY side comments or criticism, there's spots at the top and bottom of the page for that - it's called the advertising banners.
Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
J. Serpico wrote:Kevin, Apple had a resurgence a decade ago, and continues as a boutique vendor of overpriced goods. Not saying what they make is crap, in fact, there is a legitimate benefit to controlling the ecosystem of hardware and software from top to bottom. However, there are also detriments. Apple has become reactionary, the iPhone 6 Plus is my 18 month old Note 3, a phone Apple users often mocked me for, yet secretly craved. apple, who swore that a 4in phone was ideal because it could be used one handed, then decided that it wasn't ideal when the market spoke. My issue with Apple is they don't innovate, they wait for the market to speak and then they try to improve it. That worked for a while when android was nascent, but as it evolved into solid hardware and a great OS, I cannot fathom being locked into the Apple ecosystem. But I do agree with the $20 price tag on the app... Apple users are far more likely to pay for it then Android users, just as they are likely to pay $600 for the same hardware I spent $150 18 months ago.
Yup, and that's not iPhone vs Android hate - it's just exactly how it is / fact.
SethG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 291

Hey I hope my small effort to provide accurate info about what is or isn't included in the app isn't taken to be of a piece with some of the silly criticisms of the app here on this thread. I think the app is great. I expressed a small quibble with some of the editorial choices that were made, but this would be true of any such enterprise. I wish Chris and Tom great success with the venture, and I think what they've done is very impressive.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

petition to change the title of the thread to "I-phone users, you may find this of interest if you get lost easily" ?

Dom Caron · · Welsford, New Brunswick Canada · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 1,370

Thank you to the person that started this thread and thank you to the app authors. I just spent 3 days climbing in the Gunks and the app made it easy to find routes. Had I been stuck with only the DW book (my original plan) , it would've been hell trying to make out those descriptions. I'm sure it's a good book for locals who have an idea where routes are but for the travelling climber it's not really helpful.

Bottom line:
app : 2 thumbs up
DW guide : thumb down

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Dom wrote:Thank you to the person that started this thread and thank you to the app authors. I just spent 3 days climbing in the Gunks and the app made it easy to find routes. Had I been stuck with only the DW book (my original plan) , it would've been hell trying to make out those descriptions. I'm sure it's a good book for locals who have an idea where routes are but for the travelling climber it's not really helpful. Bottom line: app : 2 thumbs up DW guide : thumb down
Well, in fairness to DW, his book is as good as it is humanly possible to manage in print. The uncertainty that remains is what used to be universally viewed as part of the climbing experience, but as Dom's "thumbs down" illustrates, the climbing public has become ever more intolerant of even the slightest ambiguity, no matter how intrinsic that may be to the nature of the locale.

The fact of the matter is that the descriptions on MP and in the Trapps app owe their existence to DW's guidebooks, and are derived if not paraphrased from them, with results that are not always an improvement. The enormous amount of work Dick has put in over the years undergirds all the other attempts at describing Gunks routes.

I honestly don't think MP improves in any significant way on DW's guidebook, other than making most of the information in it available for free and providing some photographs, many mediocre, to look at. In fact, the absence of overall cliff photos condemns MP to being less effective at locating routes. So the Trapps App represents the first significant improvement in eliminating the kinds of ambiguities that, as I said, used to be an intrinsic part of the climbing experience. Whether that is a good thing or a worthy subject of ridicule depends on the individual perceptions that will, as we have seen, vary considerably. I would note that since the essence MP is sharing beta and so eliminating as much uncertainty as possible, there is something ironic about MP users finding something overly effective at what MP is itself trying to do.

I have little doubt that many climbers will find the Trapps App very useful, the static here coming from the usual sources and unlikely, in my opinion, correspond to anything significant in the general climbing public. (But we all actually live in different "publics," so I could be wrong about that...) I have even less doubt that the app, with whatever faults it may have, is nonetheless the best guide to the Trapps for visitors like Dom, who lack either the time or the inclination (or both) to familiarize themselves with the area.
Alex CV · · Greater NYC area · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 235

Standing on the shoulders of giants

Will Cohen · · Denver, Co · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 80

As an affirmation of RGold's statement and some counterpoint to the trapps app, when I climbed last weekend the grey dick was a clear winner in terms of description and route elucidation.I decided to end the day in the über fall as many do. Nothing was open, but I noticed the line called eyebrow that I had never tried was open. I decided to leave my guidebook at home to test out the app. So I looked at the trapps app line, looked at mountain project and both left a degree of ambiguity. After I got back to the ground after a lot of wandering and discovery I checked the old standby, and Found Dick's description of the line was better than that of mountain project and the trapps app.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
WillamR wrote:As an affirmation of RGold's statement and some counterpoint to the trapps app, when I climbed last weekend the grey dick was a clear winner in terms of description and route elucidation.I decided to end the day in the über fall as many do. Nothing was open, but I noticed the line called eyebrow that I had never tried was open. I decided to leave my guidebook at home to test out the app. So I looked at the trapps app line, looked at mountain project and both left a degree of ambiguity. After I got back to the ground after a lot of wandering and discovery I checked the old standby, and Found Dick's description of the line was better than that of mountain project and the trapps app.
And yet you didn't select Improve this Page on MP and suggest an improvement did you? Its kinda funny when MP users say route descriptions suck but then don't offer suggestions for them admins to fix them. Catch 22.

If someone has climbed a route and then comes on here and says that MP's page stinks or lacks something then you might as well have spent the time to offer a suggestion to fix it rather then spraying about MP's page... just my two cents.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Morgan, given that he's comparing descriptions, not saying he could have come up with a better description himself, you are basically exhorting him to take the time to replace the MP description with the "better" one he found in Dick's book, or presumably with some paraphrasing of that better one that wouldn't look like an attempt to copy the book onto MP.

Had he said "I could write better description" and didn't, I could see your point. But suggesting his "correction" of an MP "fault" should be based on "superior" existing guidebook content is, in my perhaps outdated and no longer relevant opinion, ethically precarious.

Paul-B · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 115
lucander wrote:"If they hate, then let them hate/and watch the money pile up." - Kanye West
Sir you need to get your quotes in order. Kanye was quoting 50 Cent. Its a 50 Cent line
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
rgold wrote:Morgan, given that he's comparing descriptions, not saying he could have come up with a better description himself, you are basically exhorting him to take the time to replace the MP description with the "better" one he found in Dick's book, or presumably with some paraphrasing of that better one that wouldn't look like an attempt to copy the book onto MP. Had he said "I could write better description" and didn't, I could see your point. But suggesting his "correction" of an MP "fault" should be based on "superior" existing guidebook content is, in my perhaps outdated and no longer relevant opinion, ethically precarious.
Now that's def an exageration. I was speaking generally and had written that but deleted in in favor of a simple post. But no I wouldn't want him to plagiarize or summarize a guidebook nor did I suggest that (he said he climbed the route, thus he wouldnt need to)... if you have been on a route and know the beta, then come on here and find a poor route description and then complain about it... well... my take is your not part of the solution. The webpage for the app looks great btw.
Will Cohen · · Denver, Co · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 80

I never said the mountain project description was bad. Dick's was just more precise and would have afforded me less route finding. That said, updating a completely wrong description and plagiarizing a better one are two different things.

It's a seldom travelled route anyway and I was glad to have some adventure.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Morgan and Julie, WilliamR wrote "...I checked the old standby, and Found Dick's description of the line was better than that of mountain project and the trapps app." He did the climb and concluded that Dick had given the best description. He didn't ever say the MP description "sucked," didn't ever say the MP description "lacked something," and I for one wouldn't characterize the comment above as "spraying about MP's page." I think these comments are the exaggerations in this discussion, WilliamR just thought Dick did a better job.

When someone says, "hey Dick has a better write-up than MP" and the response is, "why don't you improve MP's account," there is a message there, intended or not. I know you guys don't support overt or subtle plagiarism, and am glad to see that reiterated here.

'Nuff said on this subject I hope? There are critical issues involving the Preserve budget, yuppie iPhone users, and the superiority of the Android OS that are the things climbers find truly important.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
rgold wrote:Morgan and Julie, WilliamR wrote "...I checked the old standby, and Found Dick's description of the line was better than that of mountain project and the trapps app." He did the climb and concluded that Dick had given the best description. He didn't ever say the MP description "sucked," didn't ever say the MP description "lacked something," and I for one wouldn't characterize the comment above as "spraying about MP's page." I think these comments are the exaggerations in this discussion
I was speaking generally... so yes, taken as literally they would appear as exaggerations.
rogerbenton · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 210
rgold wrote: ...the static here coming from the usual sources and unlikely to correspond to anything significant
That's the takeaway.
Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616

There's an important distinction to be made here...

Earlier in the thread I suggested that when someone finds errors and doesn't report them to the MP staff, then they're complicit to the real/perceived issues with MP. You could even say they're contributing to the problem since they're knowingly allowing that bad information to remain unchecked.

Unfortunately route descriptions are interpretive. You could paint all the holds one color like the gym, and some people would still have a hard time following it. I've had no problems with the grey dick guide over the years. What's been said about the route description bar lowering for the newbies is probably true. This app is certainly in the spirit of painting holds [based on what's been shared], versus allowing people to learn route finding. To what degree is purely subjective. So vote with your wallet, unless in the case of android users, that vote has already been cast for you... ;-)

Here's a little secret -- many of the holds on a Gunks climb are already painted for you. Just follow the chalk. There, I just saved a few iDrones $20.

BigA · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 0

Poor dead horse. People keep beating away

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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