belaying off the shelf

I was belaying a second off the shelf of my anchor. The anchor was a tree that i tied the end of the rope to using a bowline with a double fishermen finish. When my partner got to the anchor he told me that the bowline is only meant to be used in a single direction of pull and that it is not a good idea to use it the way i did. He took a couple falls and it seemed to hold up just fine....yer gunna die?!?!

I think it was fine. If you had a bowline on the rope, how were you tied/clipped in?

overhand on a bight below the bowline. The belay was scrunched and awkward so i wanted to have the atc in a spot that i could comfortably bring the second up.

It was a single pitch with easy fourth class for 10 or so feet...I felt safe untying

My 2cents.

I'd have to agree with your parter. Even if it did work, that doesn't mean that there aren't easier and better ways of accomplishing the same goal.

1. Walk around the tree while still tied in. Take both sides of rope and tie a big overhand as a masterpoint.
2. Tie an overhand on the load line of your bowline.
2a. Use a clove hitch instead of the overhand if the belay is too "scrunched"
3. If you're set on untying from the rope and can't walk behind, loop the end around the back of the tree and tie an overhand in both strands (pretty much the same thing as #1).
4. Use a cordalette and avoid all of these shenanigans.

Just because something "works" doesn't mean that it's a great idea. Would you be willing to hang a truck off of an incorrectly loaded bowline? If not, then you shouldn't trust your partner's life to it either.

-Jeremy

Thanks for the response Jeremy. #2A is my typical way of bringing up a second when Im at the top of a cliff.

I'm with your partner on this - I've never felt that it was a good idea to pull outward on one side of a bowline loop. But no, I can't substantiate this with any reference, so maybe it's not justified.

Bowline is pretty bombproof in my opinion. As a point of reference I use a bowline (nylon line, core and sheath construction) to attach the sheets (control lines) to a head sail on a sailboat. These are attached with a 6 to 8 inch tail, no finishing knot. These lines are whipped around and pulled on from every direction with plenty of force (think 375 square feet of sail and a big breeze ) In 13 years with 25 plus days of sailing a year I have never had one come undone.

For belaying except maybe for a TR I always belay off my harness.

I have heard, though I can't cite a reference, that a bowline is strong in all direction. We all know a fig 8 isn't.

If what I've heard is correct, you were fine. I don't do it that way and I can't substantiate what I've heard. Maybe someone here, I'm thinking Mr. Titt, might have numbers to back up or dispel this.

depends on the "bowline"

Gunkiemike wrote:I'm with your partner on this - I've never felt that it was a good idea to pull outward on one side of a bowline loop. But no, I can't substantiate this with any reference, so maybe it's not justified.

You're not going to see those forces bringing up the second. A toprope. Although there are better ways to do that, his bowline, with a double-fisherman backup, was plenty strong.

The ordinary bowline failed at 184kg, and a toprope fall can easily hit double that. Thus, it can be assumed the backup knot is necessary to prevent failure. Personally I prefer to avoid such a setup.

Frank Ps is right on here guys

I think the system is way more than strong enough, and you partner's fears are unfounded. I'd be more worried about the fact that you had to untie from the rope and risk dropping it to tie it around the tree, but of course if you attached it to your belay loop before untying it'd be fine.

Come to think of it Abram, I don't think I did. I need to stop being so lazy and clip a strand from my end, to the belay loop.Thanks for the input guys.