Gunks Climbers, You May Find This Of Interest

What a shame though. It's for the iPhone crowd only. I guess going for the easy 30% market share that Apple owns is pretty smart, but when can we expect the 60% of Android users to have a looksy at it?

I love the app and the passion the authors have for creating something very special. At the intro price, it is a gift to the community. It is also a work in progress and will evolve. Coincidentally, I met the authors on the carriage road yesterday and they are working on better route descriptions. Enjoy the app as it is now, and give them time.

I have to say that we climbers in the US are a bit spoiled. European "guidebooks" are often very minimalist--all you get is the route name and grade, with a rough topo line.

A side effect of the lack of printed beta may be that people will *gasp* actually talk to each other at the cliff, rather than staring at their phones (like I am just now). My partner and I got on a relatively hard route yesterday that is not in the Williams guide. The lack of chalk was nice and is such a different experience than the norm. But the difficulty we had in figuring out the exact beta for the route also was the conversation starter with the authors. Conversations with others at the base are becoming less and less frequent, even as the cliffs have become more crowded. Maybe less info can lead to a richer experience in other ways.

Aid

Kevin Heckeler wrote:Wake me when they come to their senses and release it on android. They're only getting the gumby purchases releasing it as Apple-only. ;-)

If they are smart they will. Apple iPhone has a 15% market share and Android a 78% market share. businessinsider.com/iphone-…

Brian, those stats are world wide share. The iPhone has 42% in USA and I don't know what share of Gunks visitors, which is the only thing relevant.

Either way, the authors chose something they felt comfortable to start with and only have so much time and resources. They are doing this on their free time and I'm impressed by their enthusiasm and dedication. If they could press a button and release an Android version too, of course they would. But their priority is first to get a nice first version out of the door.

I'm sure and Android version will come down the road when they have time and/or the right partner.

Ron Birk wrote:I'm sure and Android version will come down the road when they have time and/or the right partner.

I'm sure they won't.

I mean, what do you know I don't?

While I'm certain this is an altruistic endeavor as reflected in the measly $20 price tag, it does seem that they were going where the quickest money would be (iUsers on average spend more than Android users (look it up), and have a higher average income (look that up as well)). If it was truly about reach and audience, they would have started with Android and ported over to Apple later. If we're going to paint this, let's at least paint it in shades of realistic colors.

Additionally, the MP database is extensive for the Gunks. I don't even see the need for the app. It's as useless as that latest, overpriced color Gunks guide.

There are other aspects the app brings to the table: new route listings, and alternative star and grade ratings.

Regarding new star ratings, a differing point of view (previously non-Williams-starred routes now receiving stars) will hopefully nudge people to spread out a bit more. New route listings will do the same. I always believed that the Williams Select guide had the opposite effect, funneling people to a subset of available routes.

Regarding different grade ratings, it provides a worthwhile counterpoint. Routes I've done that were on the cusp have been both upgraded and downgraded to the next number. And I can fully appreciate the rationale for each.

Does it replace the Williams guide? No, not in its current state. Does it provide enough benefit to make it worthwhile? Yes, in my opinion.

Actually Kevin, I would venture to guess that the reason for an iPhone app as opposed to android is ease of creating/programming the app working with apple. Check various developer forums and you will get a sense that apple has a much quicker turn around time and is far easier to deal with.

As far as "useless", well, that would be impossible for you to judge being that don't have the app. MP is a good resource, but it does not have the high res route drawings or reference points of the app.

I've climbed at the Trapps for years and years and feel confident on my knowledge. Even still, I found the app provided new routes and info on things I was foggy on.
Some examples would be the new classic word of mouth, and clarification on knockout drops (which is very difficult to decipher from the text only Williams guide)

rgold wrote: As I said in an earlier post, there seems to be no limit to the insatiable public desire for more and more beta. Someone will eventually complain that the holds haven't been marked (as they famously were in an alpine guide book) and that the party could end up climbing the wrong sequence after the start. The fact that the cliff pictures are zoomable means, as long as the lines have been drawn in accurately, that there is essentially more beta than could ever be adequately conveyed in words. Not to mention the fact that the relatively homogeneous structure of a Gunks cliff often makes it very challenging to describe verbally where to go. Congratulations to Chris and Tom for not burdening their fine implementation with additional and almost certainly redundant verbiage. Cliff-top walking---oh the horror! I think the addition of some of the rap stations in place when the authors did their surveying is the most problematic aspect of the guide. Rap stations are not a permanent feature of the cliff and are subject to degradation and other types of changes. They may not be there when you try to find them, or they may have become dangerous. Moreover, the traffic on these stations is likely to increase significantly as a result of the app, which means the problems associated with them will accelerate. This comes at a time when the Preserve is struggling to figure out how to deal with the profusion of rap stations and their associated ecological and safety issues, and I'm not sure this is at all helpful in that regard.

harsh.

first, the grey dick has an incredible amount of route beta. Obviously you're not against that right? It just seems like if you're going to make a very good app with very good pictures, and charge a very real amount of money, it wouldn't be "marking the holds" or "overbeta" to have route descriptions at least comparable to the guide book that it is on some level competing with. I love the guide, I'm a fan of the app, but the app isn't a the guide book and it could very easily be confused as a replacement for the grey dick by people new to the area.

I have no problem walking along the uppercliff, and obviously it's a discussion for someplace else, but I like the rapp station thing in the app. Perhaps it will mean LESS people walking around the uppercliff and LESS impact on the smaller trees and loose crap up top, and clearer rapp finding.

BigA wrote:Actually Kevin, I would venture to guess that the reason for an iPhone app as opposed to android is ease of creating/programming the app working with apple. Check various developer forums and you will get a sense that apple has a much quicker turn around time and is far easier to deal with.

It's funny, in validating your point they also stated the obviousness of following the money trail...

techcrunch.com/2013/11/16/t…

"Combine that with the fact that iOS users tend to be wealthier–and arguably more influential–and it still makes sense for most startups who want to make a splash to go iOS-first, Android-later."

It's not cruel to suggest people do things for money. Heck, that's 'Merican as it gets.
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It's unlikely I'm part of the target demographic, since I... A) Wouldn't pay for a $20 app that didn't drive my car and climb the routes for me, and B) Have no interest in getting any iProduct (I had 4 years of iPhone use 2009-12 and have to support Macs from time to time - there just isn't anything compelling for me to want their products).

I wonder how many people who love this app actually use/tried MP at the crag. Equally, I wonder how many downloads they're getting versus the hype of the few who have purchased it posting here.

Maybe the other difference Kevin, is that the Mtn Prj app doesn't offer the "more than the book" when it comes to the Trapps. So for me, having climbed here for years, the book is better. And the app is better than that, as it adds the high res photos plus highlights routes not found in the book, including newer harder lines.

But for the average visitor, maybe MP is all they need to figure out where CCK or modern times goes. But I would argue that the app might be worth the investment for those pluses mentioned above. I think the difference is that MP is to Wikipedia as the Trapps App is to a peer reviewed journal article.

BigA wrote:I think the difference is that MP is to Wikipedia as the Trapps App is to a peer reviewed journal article.

But according to the feedback the app is less comprehensive, and exclusive to less than half of the possible user base. I don't see how your analogy works. Or why you seem to defend it so fiercely. You on the take? ;-)

ˆˆˆˆ maybe because he's basing his opinions on having actually seen and used it, as opposed to bits of info he picked up on the internet.

Not that it matters since I dont use I-products but half the fun at the Gunks for me is wandering around and talking to people, asking them what they are on and going from there. The app is just going to make the Gunks more like going to a restaurant or coffee house where 90% of the customers have their heads down staring at their phones. People are going to start colliding with each other on the carriage trail while trying to walk without actually looking up so wear your helmet.

rogerbenton wrote:ˆˆˆˆ maybe because he's basing his opinions on having actually seen and used it, as opposed to bits of info he picked up on the internet.

Yep. And I'm drawing comparisons between the two. Not to knock MP, but anyone can add routes to the database. This inevitably leads to errors, as someone could get on a route just once and then submit. Or they don't even have to climb it, they can get second hand info from a friend. Whereas the app was field tested (I think some of the guides beta tested it) and checked for errors. Hence the peer review analogy.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather have THAT type of info.

BigA, there is no point in arguing with a guy who hasn't seen or used the app. Unlike him, I have used both the app and MP at the Trapps (the app just a tiny bit; it just came out), as well as every guidebook written to the Gunks and have some Gunks climbing experience before there was a guidebook, so I actually know what I'm talking about (which doesn't mean, of course, that anyone ought to agree with me).

It must certainly be clear by now that I'm ambivalent about the increasing amount of route information generally available, so I have no overt or covert interest in supporting or defending the app, and I have already registered some concern about one of its features. But objectively speaking, there is no comparison between the app and MP; the app is in a completely different class when it comes to locating and climbing routes; MP can't come close.

I'm not a Gunks newcomer, so someone else would have to provide that perspective, but my guess is that MP is very hard to use if you don't already know your way around the Trapps, whereas the app will pretty easily get a complete newcomer to a very large if not absolutely complete set of climbs, will get them started on the correct line (something you can't count on either MP or any guidebook to do), and will provide enough visual information to render verbal descriptions superfluous. If you are new to the Gunks there is nothing comparable.

If you are an old hand, then a combination of Grey Dick and MP may be better, and MP especially if you don't think that divining the secrets of a route yourself is part of the climbing process. But even so, the app's indication of the beginning of routes and the zoomable high-resolution cliff photos, taken in much better (less flat) lighting than was possible when aerial photographs had to be made in the early morning to avoid turbulence, may well make it the app the reference of first resort even for the experienced.

Thanks rgold,

I have nothing further. I completely agree!!

Now, that's quite nice.

MJMobes wrote:... The app is just going to make the Gunks more like going to a restaurant or coffee house where 90% of the customers have their heads down staring at their phones. People are going to start colliding with each other on the carriage trail while trying to walk without actually looking up so wear your helmet.

LOL...so true. I've seen people staring into their phones while on the climbs.

What is the difference between staring at your phone and staring at a guidebook?