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Gunks Climbers, You May Find This Of Interest

chris vultaggio · · The Gunks · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 535

No slime wall? That's some of the best consolidated harder climbing in the trapps...

SethG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 291

The Slime Wall is there but not Sleepy Hollow. WASP is the final climb listed. So no Casa Emilio, no Casablanca, no Moondance/Sundance, no Art's Route, Tennish Anyone, Wegetables or 10,000 Restless Virgins.

These are major omissions but as I said I'm guessing they will add them later.

chris vultaggio · · The Gunks · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 535
SethG wrote:The Slime Wall is there but not Sleepy Hollow. WASP is the final climb listed.
Whoops misread. But still, some good climbing down at the end of the cliff. Haven't seen the app but curious to see their photography.
Ron Birk · · Boston, MA · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 4,263

The app is really nice, very nice pics and lines that shows the path, but it should be more upfront that a lot is missing. The description of the routes are one liners (so don't expect anything there), and they changed the grades on many.

They only list R in some routes, but I guess most routes are PG/PG13 anyway, but it would be nice if some routes are G to know that.

Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616

Wake me when they come to their senses and release it on android. They're only getting the gumby purchases releasing it as Apple-only. ;-)

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Man, you guys are a tough audience. The app has plenty of climbs, just not every climb. The amount of work that went into the production is mind-boggling. Among other things, Chris taught himself iPhone programming from scratch just to do it. They either climbed or top-rope soloed the routes to make sure they were drawing the lines in correctly. These guys aren't a corporation, they are two climbers with full-time jobs. So jeez, give 'em a break. No doubt they'll fill in some routes and make some corrections in the lines as time goes on. Meanwhile, think of it as an extensive Gunks select; it's worth it on those grounds alone.

The app isn't perfect; for example, there are situations in which, if you want to move one one climb to the next, you have to cycle through the various views to get there. I've noticed a line or two that doesn't seem right. The winter pictures of the trail heads may be hard to interpret in the summer when the foliage is in bloom. None of this is a big deal.

Don't get me wrong, I have reservations, not so much about this particular enterprise, because, as I said, there is nothing at this point that could compromise whatever it is that constitutes the Trapps "experience," but about what similar efforts might produce. It was a matter of seconds before people started wishing for analogous apps to much less traveled parts of the Gunks, and that's a slippery slope I for one hope we don't go down.

And speaking of perhaps leaving some areas alone (but not in any way speaking for Chris and Tom), it is possible that they won't add the Northernmost end of the cliff to the guide, as it borders on ecologically sensitive land the Preserve has been trying to keep people away from.

BigA · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 0

Amen Rich

As for the line drawings, they literally had the photos in hand while hanging from ropes to determine where routes went. If some seem "off", it's because modern or popular versions of some routes have evolved somewhat, and follow a slightly different path

Christian Fracchia · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 80

To answer a few questions:

Yes, there will be updates! Currently there are 297 routes
and 58 variations; Sleepy Hollow is not included (The Slime Wall is included). Sorry if anyone felt misled. To clarify, it does not include every route, but at the same time it is much much more than a select. We will be making changes, corrections, and additions throughout the year, which will be available as free updates.

As for the topo line drawings, they have been drawn how they are most commonly climbed today.

Android...not yet at least. Our focus is on the iPhone edition.

The Whitecliff: The Whitecliff aside from minor changes and historical information is a finished product. Belays and pitch by pitch information are left for the Millbrook climber to discover. As for an app, maybe some day down the road, but it would just be the same website info on a phone.

Psyched to see people using the Trapps App already, it's been a fun and intense project so far!

We will have a table set-up at the film festival Saturday Oct 11th and I will be giving a free Millbrook slideshow at the Preserve on Friday the 10th if you didn't catch it last year at Rock & Snow. So stop by if you are interested, we are going to have some free posters of Modern-Psychedelic.

We do appreciate the feedback, the good and the bad!

Thanks,
CFrac

rogerbenton · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 210

Is Sleepy Hollow absent from the app by design or can we expect to see it in the future?

Christian Fracchia · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 80

We originally considered treating it like Lost City so it was intentionally left out. With that said we have not made any final decisions.

Rob D · · Queens, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 30

Love the app, but really wish that the descriptions were better. I can understand the incredible amount of work that went into the app, and the pictures are incredible, but most have incredibly minimal route beta. I can see how climbing a new climb without the mountain project app or dick grey book could end up with climbing the wrong route after the start.

Adding rapp stations, even those that aren't bolted, was a really smart choice. It's MUCH clearer where you can rapp from. Not knowing where all the stations are has left me walking along the cliff top more than once and the dick app is sometimes unclear about where rapp stations. For sure ended up walking to uberfalls from wayyyyyy down in the trapps.

Ron Birk · · Boston, MA · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 4,263

The app could have links to the mountain project pages for beta :)

I'm curious why there are some obvious omissions on pitches. First I should say I haven't climbed many routes and only the easier ones. So I only looked at some of the few I have climbed.

For example, second pitch of Fancy Idiot is missing completely. I like that pitch. Then Rusty Trifle is regarded as a 5.6 and completely different from the way most people doing it, i.e. the way in the Dick Williams guide. Skipping the first traverse gives you a most wonderful 5.3 and I see hordes of people climbing it that way and enjoying it. But this app doesn't mention this at all.

I am all for showing variations and especially new ones, but it would be nice to keep the standard ones.

For Sleepy Hollow, I really miss that area in this app. It's all published in the Dick Williams guide, so it's not exactly a secret. I go there all the times as it has some really good routes.

For search, I would really like to be able to search for pitches of s certain grade. Say I can lead 5.5 and a 5.9 route has a great 5.5 first pitch. Or vice versa, second pitch is a nice lower grade. For example I love doing Jackie first pitch and continue on Classic second pitch (5.4).

Last thing, again, it is a wonderful app. If it wasn't I wouldn't spend time giving comments about it.

Will Cohen · · Denver, Co · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 80
Rob Davis wrote:Love the app, but really wish that the descriptions were better. I can understand the incredible amount of work that went into the app, and the pictures are incredible, but most have incredibly minimal route beta. I can see how climbing a new climb without the mountain project app or dick grey book could end up with climbing the wrong route after the start. Adding rapp stations, even those that aren't bolted, was a really smart choice. It's MUCH clearer where you can rapp from. Not knowing where all the stations are has left me walking along the cliff top more than once and the dick app is sometimes unclear about where rapp stations. For sure ended up walking to uberfalls from wayyyyyy down in the trapps.
If I recall they purposefully left out major beta in order to keep any form of adventure in trad climbing in the trapps.

037200b.netsolhost.com/blog…

With all the beta, photos, and spray one has access to on the internet people no longer have to take responsibility or risk in their Gunks adventures. I think the lack of beta was an act to prevent the Gunks from feeling more like sport climbing with gear than an actual day of trad.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Rob Davis wrote:Love the app, but really wish that the descriptions were better. I can understand the incredible amount of work that went into the app, and the pictures are incredible, but most have incredibly minimal route beta. I can see how climbing a new climb without the mountain project app or dick grey book could end up with climbing the wrong route after the start.


As I said in an earlier post, there seems to be no limit to the insatiable public desire for more and more beta. Someone will eventually complain that the holds haven't been marked (as they famously were in an alpine guide book) and that the party could end up climbing the wrong sequence after the start.

The fact that the cliff pictures are zoomable means, as long as the lines have been drawn in accurately, that there is essentially more beta than could ever be adequately conveyed in words. Not to mention the fact that the relatively homogeneous structure of a Gunks cliff often makes it very challenging to describe verbally where to go. Congratulations to Chris and Tom for not burdening their fine implementation with additional and almost certainly redundant verbiage.

Rob Davis wrote:Adding rapp stations, even those that aren't bolted, was a really smart choice. It's MUCH clearer where you can rapp from. Not knowing where all the stations are has left me walking along the cliff top more than once and the dick app is sometimes unclear about where rapp stations. For sure ended up walking to uberfalls from wayyyyyy down in the trapps.
Cliff-top walking---oh the horror! I think the addition of some of the rap stations in place when the authors did their surveying is the most problematic aspect of the guide. Rap stations are not a permanent feature of the cliff and are subject to degradation and other types of changes. They may not be there when you try to find them, or they may have become dangerous. Moreover, the traffic on these stations is likely to increase significantly as a result of the app, which means the problems associated with them will accelerate. This comes at a time when the Preserve is struggling to figure out how to deal with the profusion of rap stations and their associated ecological and safety issues, and I'm not sure this is at all helpful in that regard.
Ron Birk · · Boston, MA · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 4,263

I miss many second pitches, but maybe because they are less commonly climbed? But one big complete omission is Hans Puss, my favorite 5.7. What happened to that one?

Frank Stein · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 205

I spent only 2 days in the Gunks about 16 years ago, and did not have any issues finding rap stations. That said, I think that it is a major mistake to not include descent and trail information in various guides for the sake of "maintaining adventure." Yes, established trails and rap stations will get beaten down, but that is preferable to countless social trails going every which way, trampling vegetation.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
the schmuck wrote:I spent only 2 days in the Gunks about 16 years ago, and did not have any issues finding rap stations. That said, I think that it is a major mistake to not include descent and trail information in various guides for the sake of "maintaining adventure." Yes, established trails and rap stations will get beaten down, but that is preferable to countless social trails going every which way, trampling vegetation.
I don't think decisions regarding the information that is or is not present in any guide to the Gunks ever had anything to do with "preserving adventure," so let's begin by putting that angle completely to rest.

Grey Dick started the process of describing descents by including information about the Preserve-bolted rap routes on the cliff photos, and now the Gunks App improves on that by indicating how to head to those Preserve lines from the tops of nearby climbs, so some things are heading in the direction you advocate and not the other way. On the other hand, ad hoc rap stations are essentially also social trails, and institutionalizing them in the app seems, at least to me, to point in the direction you criticize.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

I bought the app. It's a great tool for my wife and I. We went for our first time last month and really enjoyed New Paltz and the climbing at the Trapps. We plan to make a stop this week and any other time we're headed further upstate to the Adirondacks. It's nice to have information that fits in my pocket but isn't on paper. Thanks for creating the app!

I like the feeling you get after you're in and out of a little adventure IE: not knowing if a 60M rope will get you down to the next rap station or to that tree above. Heck, I used Don Mellor's Climbing in the Adirondacks for a few years when I started climbing. On the other hand when I'm with my wife I'll be that new wave of app carrying, sporto slacking, where's the rap stations and belays whining, sat phone rocking, PAS thong having, Can I wash my rope after I mark it with a sharpie asking Gumby-like noob because.. sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick. Sometimes I feel like a nut sometimes I don't. And sometimes I wanna be safe as possible and sometimes I don't have to be home when the street lights come on..

rogerbenton · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 210
Christian Fracchia wrote:We originally considered treating it like Lost City so it was intentionally left out. With that said we have not made any final decisions.
I'm digging the app. For me it's welcome and worth the price for the route location and descent beta alone. It's never been an issue with the book but this will be a lot faster and easier.

~300 routes is enough to last me a while, and if i really needed to get on something that's not represented in the app i could always just ask someone (Or look at the book... Or check the mp app).

The limited route beta is different. Might take some getting used to. I'm kind of liking the concept because I'm one of those people who still thinks "onsight, ground up" is a thing. With this app you can look up the location of a route, get to it definitively, see the general direction in which to climb, and have at it. No step by step directions to sully the experience. I really enjoy not knowing where the crux is, and for whatever reason, I climb better that way.

That said, my two cents is that the limited route descriptions and the fact that it doesn't contain all the routes at the trapps should be made clear so that people don't buy it and then bemoan the lack of beta. I'm willing to bet that most people are looking for more, not less info.
J. Serpico · · Saratoga County, NY · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 140
Chris Duca wrote:Quite polished looking App. Does it climb the route for me, as well? In all seriousness, having climbed in the Gunks for 20 years now, I could still see using this handy app for The Bank, Bonticou, or even Lost City (Gasp!), if those became available at some point.
I wonder what would happen to the person who finally begins posting Bonticou, et al. routes. This is an interesting conversation I often have with Gunks climbers, and we've come up with some pretty nasty things that could happen. All I know is that it won't be pretty.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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