Subway Top Down in November?

Hi!
We're going to hike the Subway topdown on November 3rd, anyone ever done it that late in the year?
I was wondering if we really are going to need drysuits, or if wetsuits will do.
From the rout descriptions, I am not really understanding how long I would have to hike out of the water in the wet wetsuit, waiting for the next swim. I expect T° outside to be only in the lower 70s sooo... a wet wetsuit out of the water might get colder than the water itself.

Another question is: how long does it REALLY take for decent hikers? I'll have to catch a flight in Las Vegas at 11.00pm the same day... :)

Thanks!

Are you going to do the full Subway, with Das Boot? Even then, dry suits might be overkill, but they sure would be nice. When I did Das Boot in early November, we had thin layers of ice over the pot holes. I'm sure it was nice up top in the sun, but it was chilly down below and we were psyched for the drysuits in the long swims. I hiked out after Das Boot, to get wetsuit gloves for Kolob the next day (that was the right decision, fwiw), as Das Boot was colder than we expected. I never did get to see the rest of the canyon, but I was psyched on the other few canyons I did around there. Good luck!

Gloves! Right! Thanks for the tip aSteel, I didn't think about that.
No Das Boot for us I'm afraid. From the map it looks much longer and we'll have to catch a flight at 11pm the same day in LAs Vegas...
I'm still pondering drysuit over wetsuit.. seems like the wetsuits for rent around there are only 3mm, which is likely too thin for 40F water, but I'd definitely go for a wetsuit if I'd find at least 7mm for rent. Any suggestions on where to find them?

Also, would anyone know of a cheap way to get transportation from the Left Fork trailhead to the Wildcat? (carpool websites? cheaper, non on-line businesses, etc..?)

Thanks again for the help

Hey Elisa;

I hiked the Subway in late October with wetsuit and gloves and neoprene booties. I froze my ass off! Was shaking with near hypothermia. One of the swimming holes, I had to stand under a waterfall and pull my rap line. That was wonderful.. not. IMHO do the dry suits. Course, a lot depends on body fat percentage.
Its a long hike after the pools of water to the parking lot. Its further down canyon than I thought. I think you can make your flight just fine.. if you and yours are not too slow with hiking n such. Just be careful you don't fall asleep on your flight and wake up in Cuba...hehe... you might be a little worn. Save a red bull for after the pools.. and start moving.

I think you can rent all the necessities right in Springdale

cheers... lou

Thanks lou! That's helpful to know too (and good idea on the RedBull lol)
Not much fat to count on around here... :(
How thick was your wetsuit?
All of us are pretty good hikers, but I'm thinking we might use a lot of time in rappelling because one of my friends never done it before (but the other one is an alpine guide, so likely we're good).
All in all, I think that if we manage to start the descent around 7am, we'll be out by 4pm at the VERY VERY latest.

By the way for anyone interested, Red Rock Shuttles (hard to find online for some reason, if you don't know about it) is the cheapest (and more flexible in schedule) shuttle service that I found yet.

ElisaB wrote:but I'd definitely go for a wetsuit if I'd find at least 7mm for rent. Any suggestions on where to find them?

Try a scuba shop in Vegas … though returning them may be problematic given your return time.

ElisaB wrote:Also, would anyone know of a cheap way to get transportation from the Left Fork trailhead to the Wildcat?

Hitch hike …

Regarding the time it takes … it really depends on your group size and abilities. Being good hikers means little when it comes to dealing with slots and swims.

As for the temps you could have 70s on the rim and 40s in Left Fork with similar water temps.

Also do not under estimate finding the entrance or the exit. People have pooched both.

FWIW I would suggest that before hand folks do an easy wet hike like the Narrows. If folks are not happy campers doing the easy wadding of the Narrows they should probably skip the Subway.

I did Das Boot-Subway in mid-Oct a few years ago. There was just a bit of ice starting to form in the coldest pools. I wore a 3 mm wetsuit and my buddy rented a drysuit. He was very comfortable in the water and hot outside, and I was a little chilly in the water but perfect outside. So, you can really do it either way and you'll be fine, but if you need to rent regardless, I'd go with the drysuit (I already had my own wetsuit). We both rented the neoprene shoes, which were excellent. I had done it before in river-shoes and it sucked, mainly because small rocks will get in between your feet and the soles, and your feet will get really cold.

Don't underestimate the hiking time in and out, especially with route-finding to find the start (GPS device will be helpful here, if you have it). Getting back to Vegas in time for your flight is certainly doable, but it will be a long day and the uncertainty of hitch-hiking your way out sounds kinda stressful IMO. I've left a bike at the end but that doesn't necessarily save any time, since you're ending the day with a steep uphill ride back to the car. The other time, we hitch-hiked successfully.

If I remember correct, car-to-car (Subway only) took us about 10 hours the first time I did it, but that was at a fairly leisurely pace with some photography in mind.

ElisaB wrote:All of us are pretty good hikers, but I'm thinking we might use a lot of time in rappelling because one of my friends never done it before (but the other one is an alpine guide, so likely we're good).

Are you prepared for the potential multi-hour epic that could ensue? Also, if your alpine guide friend has never done a technical slot, don't assume that s/he will be any faster than your friend who has never rappelled.

ElisaB wrote: All in all, I think that if we manage to start the descent around 7am, we'll be out by 4pm at the VERY VERY latest.

The descent or start the hike and find the entrance? I've heard typical times of 10-12 hrs car-to-car, which is what it took us (~11 hrs). And as someone else mentioned, finding the correct route/entrance can be the crux for some parties.

Although your flight out of Vegas is sufficiently late, it's still kind of a big day to have a hard deadline looking at you.

Some more info to help you plan your trip (slow day at work). I consider myself a decent hiker and have lots of route-finding experience, and I had rappelled a few dozen times prior to my first Subway trip. It took us much longer than expected and we had a bit of trouble finding the entrance to the slot. One of the raps, which was only ~12 feet, became very complicated and took longer than expected because it was cold as hell (fingers didn't work) and we were being pummeled by a small waterfall. If I'm not mistaken, someone died (drowned) in that same spot a year or two ago?

You'll have a blast, I'm sure. It's fun and it isn't very technical at all, compared to what you see in climbing. Just get an early start and add some buffer time in case things don't go as planned. I have a friend who did the canyon and broke her hand on the final rap (slipped awkwardly and stuck her hand out to protect her head). It's just a different environment than what most people are used to, and weird things can happen.

Jason Kim wrote:It took us much longer than expected...

Probably one of the top 10 most frequently said lines in canyon country!
The estimated times in the majority of the canyoneering guides - both print and online - are usually off by anywhere from 10% - 45%.

I've done some extensive canyoneering in Zion and have done the Subway multiple times. The times I've taken unexperienced people through we usually average 11 hours, not counting the car-spot or hitch-hike if you didn't hire a shuttle.

I've done it in the off-season as well and have been unable to hitch-hike back to the start to retreive my car, leaving me with a 7-mile jog after an 11-hour slot canyon. That side of the Park in the off-season can see little traffic, especially since the sun will be setting or already set by the time you hike out of the canyon to the lower parking lot.

Is the Subway tecnically easy? Pretty much, but it is a long long slog. Any number of minor mishaps could blow your time table.

For whatever my advice is worth, I'd find something else to do in Zion based on your flight time-table and the experience of your group. Choose a shorter slot to play in. Perhaps do Keyhole for a nice taste of cold wet Zion slots...or choose Pine Creek for more adventure. Spry canyon will be a lot warmer with less water if you want to go that route. All three of these slots are shorter than the Subway. There are other options as well. It depends on how much you want to get into the rappelling aspect or not, I don't know how experienced your group really is to make a judgement call for you.

I agree with some of the other posters, with an inexperienced group you will be moving slower than you anticipate, especially with someone who doesn't know how to rappel.

You probably already know about Tom Jones' excellent web site and Zion slot canyon guide, but if not... canyoneeringusa.com/

Good luck and have fun!

I second everything that Mark said.

Austin Baird wrote:I second everything that Mark said.

+1
Just checked - sunset on 3 Nov in Zion is 5:33pm, meaning that in the shadows of the canyons, things can start getting dim after 4pm.

Awww thank you so much to all of you! This is all so useful.
I did get a much better idea of what we're getting into since my last post.
After reading all the inputs I spent the day (don't tell my boss, lol) looking into many many many other options, and I still have the impression that the Subway would work better for us. Other technically "easy" canyons have much longer rappels that we'd rather avoid (even though the one of us I mention as a guide is indeed an expert in climbing and rappels, who takes inexpert people on trips often, just not in canyoneering, so there's something new for each of us. And yes, he's aware that this will be new).
Plus, as Allen was suggesting, we are indeed going to do a 2-days backpacking into the Narrows before the subway, so we can always decide to give it up if we freeze our asses there :)
What I definitely understood is that I should be more worried about timing and route-finding than I was before. Mainly route finding, which really means timing.

So, the plan is to get drysuits, and to get a shuttle that will put us there at about 6.30am.
We'll have compasses and the canyoneeringusa.com topographical deluxe maps (yes Mark, that's the main website I've been using, thank you so much for all your useful input), and all the betas I can find (any suggestions about the best ones?). No GPS though, they never get signal where we go anyway.
I am going to look at as many descriptions/pictures of the entrance and exit routes that I can find and impress them in my head :)

If we'll still be delayed by unforeseen events, we'll have hedlamps and emergency stuff as usual (we're 3 late 30s to middle 40s mature folks in good shape, not kids mindlessly looking for adrenalin kicks), and missing the flight will be ok. There will always be other flights :)

Don't worry about the exit - if you've made it that far, it will be easy to spot. Finding your way to the entrance is really the only route-finding obstacle IMO, and a GPS (if you have one) should certainly work (since you will be on the plateau above the canyon, with clear views of the sky). I'm all for map and compass, but since you have such a strict timetable, might as well eliminate that issue, if possible.

Also, take note of where the dinosaur tracks are - they're really cool! Easy to miss, though, if you don't have the beta.

Once you make it down the last rap and through the Subway proper (this is the very photogenic area that you see in all the photos) you're basically home free. It's just a really long slog along the banks of the river and up and out the canyon at the end.

Oh, and kudos to you all if the three of you are all able to make it down the red terraced steps without slipping and landing on your ass. It's happened to me every time I'm been there, no matter how careful I am.

HAHA, I'll make sure I count the falls and get back to you :)

The dinosaur tracks are one of the things I'm so excited about!!! I work in astrobiology, which includes evolution and stuff, so I wouldn't miss those for anything in the world! Thanks for pointing out that they might be hard to spot.

Ok, GPS will be, I'll find one.

Thank you all for the help, and let me know if you ever come to Florida, we have some cool canyons here too... well caves.. hundreds of feet underwater.. :)