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What is this world coming to?!?

Mike C · · Co · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 1,046

does anyone want to climb.....ethics debates are lame!

Ben Walburn · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 680

Sarah I agree with you entirely my input is entirely just an opinion and that is what this forum is about, discussing this and other like topics. So instead of going back and forth with people that insert negative comments that suggest an attitude as described below (NC Rock CLimber)
..."The post above is quite simply a bunch of steaming shit that smells vaguely of entitlement and false superiority."

I'll simply say that this is not the attitude that I engaged this thread with nor have I been out of line and I will not trade punches with you. I assure you I don't have a superiority complex, not in this town. In your minds ear you should try reading the comments of people void of how your imagination hears their tone of voice or feeds into what you want to believe.

When I did my first bit of aid climbing before going to Yosemite I thought of going to Castle rock, but then went to other cracks out of common curtsey for the other people that want to enjoy this beautiful free climb. This is an opinion held by several people around the area and is the 2 cents I put in.

Enjoy the "conversation", enjoy the season and the great weather. I'm out of this one.

GabeO · · Boston, MA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 302
reboot wrote:I don't get the argument that aid climbers should only get on a route when it's too "cold" to free climb. Fact is, everybody likes to get out when the weather is nice.
You don't get it? Okay, I'll spell it out for you. Practicing aid, by a party that's working on getting their systems dialed, takes a really long time. I know. I've done it. Nothing wrong with that. But doing so on a super-popular route on a beautiful weekend is equivalent to standing in the front of a long line at an ice cream counter with only one server and asking to sample 20 flavors before making up your mind.

That's not to say that working a route when someone just let you pass them is any less of a dick move.

But while we're talking about what we learned in kindergarten - two wrongs don't make a right.

Sarah - I'm glad hanging out for half the day waiting for your climb didn't bother you. But, all things considered, your objective for the day was just a bit ill-conceived, IMO. There are many other climbs you could've done to help prep your friend for a trip to Yosemite that would've worked out fine for you, and perhaps better for others. A quick search here on MP shows many fine lists of climbs. That's the whole thing about aid climbing - it works on stuff that's a real problem to free.

With that said, I think the whole tone of the thread "what's the world coming to" is a bit over the top. It's not that big a deal for anyone - those who got to climb CCC, or those who had to move on to something else. But it's nicer if we can all try to insure that everyone gets what they need. That's what all these ethics are aiming at.

Cheers,

GO
GabeO · · Boston, MA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 302
mike c wrote:does anyone want to climb.....ethics debates are lame!
You know what's lame? People going to a website for posting about climbing, clicking on a thread about climbing ethics, and posting to that thread just to say that posting to a thread about ethics on a climbing website is lame.

No-one made you come here and offer your two cents. If I could be climbing now, I would be. But posting here is entertaining while I wait for this round of data-testing to complete.

GO
David B · · Denver, CO · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 205
NC Rock Climber wrote:Sorry, Ben, but it is first come first served.
This is definitely simplifying things. Sure, technically it is first come, first served. But generally it's expected that people operate with some level of courtesy. If you know you're going to spend hours on a route, maybe pick one that isn't as crowded and is more styled to your purpose. I've seen people set up hammocks on crowded walls. Technically, they have the right to do that. Should they, though?
Ray Lovestead · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 108

Can you guys please come to a conclusion already? I'm patiently waiting behind my computer to know what to do next. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to aid CCC this Saturday or free climb a good 5.11 in Eldo this Wednesday. I'm so confused.

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Dylan B. wrote:This thread is exhibit A in the case of "why I would never want to live or climb in Boulder, CO."
Excellent. Please proceed with that plan.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
GabeO wrote: You don't get it? Okay, I'll spell it out for you. Practicing aid, by a party that's working on getting their systems dialed, takes a really long time.
You are making the assumption that people only aid CCC as practice, not an end to itself. Fact is, it's a cool climb in large part because of its position & surrounding, and that does not change whether you aid it, dog it, or free solo it. And everyone enjoys it more when it's nice out. Saying that if you can't free climb it, then you can't get on it on a nice weekend is plain elitist attitude. Why it is not ok for a slow party to enjoy a piece of rock on a nice weekend day once in a blue moon when Boulder "elites" have taken 100's of laps on it over many nice weekends?
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

It's funny how this one works out in my mind.

I'd rather cover my testicles with meat and wrestle with badgers than aid CCC. In the decade I've lived in CO, I have climbed it three times. I could see fit to do it again, it's fun but off my radar.

Still, I side with the aid climbers on this one. The beauty of the weekend is irrelevant.

There really are very few cracks like CCC, especially in BoCan. This is also irrelevant.

Andy Novak · · Bailey, CO · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 370

Between myself, James, Rich, Adam, Mike c, and Sarah, I think almost all parties that were climbing at Castle last Saturday afternoon are represented here. Repeat this Saturday? I'll bring the beer and pitons! Let's hug it out.

WadeM · · Auburn, Ca · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 481
mike c wrote:does anyone want to climb.....ethics debates are lame!
Mike lets climb! You still have my number?
GabeO · · Boston, MA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 302
reboot wrote: You are making the assumption that people only aid CCC as practice, not an end to itself. Fact is, it's a cool climb in large part because of its position & surrounding, and that does not change whether you aid it, dog it, or free solo it. And everyone enjoys it more when it's nice out. Saying that if you can't free climb it, then you can't get on it on a nice weekend is plain elitist attitude. Why it is not ok for a slow party to enjoy a piece of rock on a nice weekend day once in a blue moon when Boulder "elites" have taken 100's of laps on it over many nice weekends?
I am making no such assumptions. The party aiding it said exactly what they were doing and why.

I said exactly what I meant to say - don't put words in my mouth. You said you didn't get it, so I explained it to you.

If you have your systems really dialed, you can definitely aid up the route as fast as a competent free party. But to pretend that's what's being discussed is disingenuous.

GO
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
GabeO wrote: I am making no such assumptions. The party aiding it said exactly what they were doing and why. I said exactly what I meant to say - don't put words in my mouth.
Yes you did. The aid party that let the dogging party go first was looking to scout aiding it for possible free climbing at a later date, that's not the same as practice aiding. I didn't say anything about practice aiding, you did. So don't put words in my mouth.
BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

Your ethics might not be the same as someone else's. Your determination of right or wrong may be different than someone else's. The way you handle an offense will be different than someone else's. Your climbing skills may be different than someone else's. The way you like to climb may be different than someone else's, and so on...

You try to be courteous towards others and they take advantage of this. You work hard at being helpful and people are spiteful. You keep on doing the right thing only to see others getting away with doing the wrong thing, and so on...

This is life everyday, even outside of climbing, ladies and gentlemen.

Until the rules are posted on a neon orange/yellow sign that is staked at the bottom of the route, I believe we will all have to work the best we can with what we've got.

Options most of us pick:

1- Try to live by the "golden rule", be the "bigger man", and all the other cliches you've heard.

2- Get mad/upset and ruin your day.

3- Don't get mad, get even.

Remember, what you pick may be different than someone else's.

James Dean Anderson · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2013 · Points: 146
Andy Novak wrote:Between myself, James, Rich, Adam, Mike c, and Sarah, I think almost all parties that were climbing at Castle last Saturday afternoon are represented here. Repeat this Saturday? I'll bring the beer and pitons! Let's hug it out.
Either that or we can work on our next project - dry tooling second ascent of the naked edge

ha ha
Naked Edge, DT.
Rich Farnham · · Nederland, CO · Joined Aug 2002 · Points: 297
Andy Novak wrote:Between myself, James, Rich, Adam, Mike c, and Sarah, I think almost all parties that were climbing at Castle last Saturday afternoon are represented here.
Have we heard from the free-climbing party you guys let go ahead? I'd be interested to hear their take on it.

From what it sounds to me, you guys had the right approach, and got screwed. I aided CCC years ago when I was learning to aid. And more recently I've hung out and top-roped it (and Englishman's) after leading it free. In both situations I'm always prepared to give up the route to someone who wants to lead it free. It sounds like you had a similar attitude, and then they camped out on it.

My main issue with any of this is not hogging the route. It is one of the best around for that style of climbing. Also Englishman's Home tops out in the same place, so you tie that route up as well (arguably an even better route than CCC). I'm sure CCC can be aided quickly, but the overwhelming majority of people heading out to aid it will not be moving quickly. They are there to learn, and will move slowly while they do so. This hogs the route, which is why it's better to head out at a time when less people are likely to want to do the route.

In my mind, what the free-climbing team did on Saturday isn't any better. They hogged the route when others were waiting, on a day when anyone would expect that lots of people would want to do the route.

I've seen it go both ways at this route. I've made a number of friends by being friendly with people that were on the route, or who walked up when I was on it. I've also had it go poorly when people are hogging the route.

As to the second aid party that waited it out, Sarah said, "Once they were done, we did our thing and there was no one else waiting for the climb that day". That's not really true. I walked over and saw your team leaving the ground, and decided to do the Sting instead of Englishman's Home. After the Sting, you guys were just starting the second pitch, so I did the first two of Athlete's Feat instead of Englishman's. So, just because no one else was standing on the ground waiting for you to finish, doesn't mean others weren't interested in doing a route in that zone. There were enough other parties there that day that it's reasonable to assume others were making decisions the same way I was - seeing your team moving slowly up the route, they chose a different route.

Andy Novak wrote:Repeat this Saturday? I'll bring the beer and pitons! Let's hug it out.
Now you're talking! Sadly, I can't make it out this weekend. Enjoy! Hope to run into you again at the crags and enjoy a beer!
tim · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 507

It's too greasy to free climb

GabeO · · Boston, MA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 302
reboot wrote: Yes you did. The aid party that let the dogging party go first was looking to scout aiding it for possible free climbing at a later date, that's not the same as practice aiding. I didn't say anything about practice aiding, you did. So don't put words in my mouth.
Let's slow down a little and rewind. A number of people, myself included, are saying that while it's not cool to tie up a route like CCC for hours to dog it when others are waiting, neither is it cool to go on a popular weekend day with the intention of using it for practice aid. You with me so far?

Okay, so you asked why one might think it's not cool to do so, and I explained that. Whether you agree with me or not is another matter.

But now you're claiming that the conversation wasn't about practice aid all along.

So let's look back and read what was said:

Aid party #1 gave no specific explanation for why they were there that day, but when they didn't get on CCC, they got on the aid roof. So clearly aid was their focus. And why was aid their focus? Here's what they say: "I am not saying that aid climbers are entitled to back up free lines all day but I do think that everyone should have the opportunity to hone their skills"

Aid party #2 spells out their motivation even more clearly: "I was one of the girls from the second aid party. The person i went with really wanted to learn some more about aid before going to Yosemite in a couple days, and Saturday was the day it could work for us to get together."

I hope that clarifies matters sufficiently.

Cheers,

GO
Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486
BigFeet wrote:Your ethics might not be the same as someone else's. Your determination of right or wrong may be different than someone else's. The way you handle an offense will be different than someone else's. Your climbing skills may be different than someone else's. The way you like to climb may be different than someone else's, and so on... You try to be courteous towards others and they take advantage of this. You work hard at being helpful and people are spiteful. You keep on doing the right thing only to see others getting away with doing the wrong thing, and so on... This is life everyday, even outside of climbing, ladies and gentlemen. Until the rules are posted on a neon orange/yellow sign that is staked at the bottom of the route, I believe we will all have to work the best we can with what we've got. Options most of us pick: 1- Try to live by the "golden rule", be the "bigger man", and all the other cliches you've heard. 2- Get mad/upset and ruin your day. 3- Don't get mad, get even. Remember, what you pick may be different than someone else's.
Kudos to all of this and I'll add a little: When deciding what to do in these situations ie confront or not confront, forget about morals, values, ethics, "shoulds","honor", etc..Focus on the facts at hand.

One important thing to consider is this: Is the kind of person who is behaving inconsiderately to begin with likely to react positively or even neutrally to being confronted about it? Probably not. (I used to think that about half the time they just didn't know they were being inconsiderate, but from grim experience I've learned that probably 80% of the time they are fully aware of what they're doing.)

Unless the practical things at stake are important enough to you that you're willing to really do battle over them, it's usually best to let it slide.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Christian wrote: One important thing to consider is this: Is the kind of person who is behaving inconsiderately to begin with likely to react positively or even neutrally to being confronted about it? Probably not. (I used to think that about half the time they just didn't know they were being inconsiderate, but from grim experience I've learned that probably 80% of the time they are fully aware of what they're doing.)
How about another question -how likely is it that you will get a better resolution on it by complaining on the net later than by trying to work something out right there?
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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