What is this world coming to?!?

I love it when people from outside the area comment on local issues. It's funny to read the comments that clearly indicate that they have no idea about indigenous ethics or the perspective of the people involved and in this case the melodramatic, tongue and cheek crying out of a valid complaint.

Adam, you're such a Duesch!

I don't get the argument that aid climbers should only get on a route when it's too "cold" to free climb. Fact is, everybody likes to get out when the weather is nice. Plenty of free climbers stay home when the condition is free climbable but not "optimal".

With the crowded front range reality, on a nice weekend, it behoves everyone to get thru a popular climb as quickly as possible, in whatever style you so choose. And if you are a local that have done the route 100s of times already, regardless of how fast you can fly up it, maybe stop bitching & let someone else have at it? It is a shared resource after all.

Ben Walburn wrote:I love it when people from outside the area comment on local issues.

I wonder if you would have chimed in with this helpful comment if these posters had agreed with your buddy Adam?

Truth is, nobody has more of a right over anyone else to climb a rock first. These guys went cragging on Country Club with little regard for people waiting for it. I was there. Between each of them taking, getting lowered, rapping etc, they took up the route for nearly 3 hours (the same time or even longer than if an efficient aid team were on it.). Aid climbers should give free climbers first go, but that doesn't mean camping out on it when people are clearly waiting.

For future reference, aid Athlete's Feet instead of CCC. For one, it's a more difficult aid climb (a few steep sections require effecient transitioning from aid to free to aid, and two, it's a route with five short pitches, if you're aiding, and a party of free climbers is behind you, you can easily clip in to the anchor bolts and chill out for a few while they pass you. And three, it's a harder free climb and slightly less of a prized nut to crack for some, so you're dealing with a smaller group of climbers who you might interfere with.

Also, I think when Rich said that it's better to aid CCC on a cold winter day, he isn't talking about your typical sunny, 45 degree Colorado day, which would be pretty damn nice up on the route rather, he's talking about those nasty ass days when a lot of folks would be out looking to swing tools or make turns. Throw on a puffy and some gloves and get to work. It'll make you a tougher climber and prepare you for big objectives more effectively.

I'm still having a hard time getting over the chutzpah of the party of free climbers. Somebody beats you to the crag, offers to graciously let you go first, and then you hangdog the $@ out of a trad climb for 3 hours while the party that was there first waits?

Wow. Somebody failed to understand the Golden Rule that was taught in kindergarten.

teece303 wrote:I'm still having a hard time getting over the chutzpah of the party of free climbers. Somebody beats you to the crag, offers to graciously let you go first, and then you hangdog the $@ out of a trad climb for 3 hours while the party that was there first waits? Wow. Somebody failed to understand the Golden Rule that was taught in kindergarten.

I blame common core and the globalist banking elite

Andy Novak wrote: I wonder if you would have chimed in with this helpful comment if these posters had agreed with your buddy Adam? Truth is, nobody has more of a right over anyone else to climb a rock first...

This.

+1000

First come, first served, with a little common courtesy thrown in.

Andy Novak wrote: I wonder if you would have chimed in with this helpful comment if these posters had agreed with your buddy Adam? Truth is, nobody has more of a right over anyone else to climb a rock first. These guys went cragging on Country Club with little regard for people waiting for it. I was there. Between each of them taking, getting lowered, rapping etc, they took up the route for nearly 3 hours (the same time or even longer than if an efficient aid team were on it.). Aid climbers should give free climbers first go, but that doesn't mean camping out on it when people are clearly waiting.

Not that we have aid climbers here in ct but if I let someone pass me or hop in front it is expected they are sending and not 'working' the route. I would verify that before letting someone ahead of me and if they take a fall and 'need' to be lowered to the ground they are giving up their 'pass'.

I also agree about first come first serve but always feel there should be some consideration for others. Balance... which is often non-existent in forum speak.

The Blueprint Part Dank wrote: I blame common core and the globalist banking elite

Ha... the banking elite doesn't send their children to schools with common core. They attend private schools... and they tend to teach their kids manners just a different set because mommy and daddy tend to own the sand box.

Spending 2.5 hrs. "working" a route that is clearly beyond your abilities is aid.

Ordinarily I would hope that aid climbers find less crowded lines to practice on (though the aid climber sounded like he made every effort to be accomodating, so props to him). Everyone I think would be happier with the result: you can practice without the glares and others can still climb on more popular free climbs. On the other hands, "free" climbers have the same duty to be responsible to other users and not mercilessly dog routes that are way beyond their paygrade. It's a trad climb, not Rifle. The "I'm working it" excuse only goes so far. You got to shit or get off the pot.

Three hours? My solo aid of Aid Crack took at least 4.5 hours! Luckily, a nice lady named Helen over on some free routes noticed me toiling and suggested I join her group, which of course I did. I think that was the last aiding I ever did in BoCan.

Andy Novak wrote: I wonder if you would have chimed in with this helpful comment if these posters had agreed with your buddy Adam? Truth is, nobody has more of a right over anyone else to climb a rock first. These guys went cragging on Country Club with little regard for people waiting for it. I was there. Between each of them taking, getting lowered, rapping etc, they took up the route for nearly 3 hours (the same time or even longer than if an efficient aid team were on it.). Aid climbers should give free climbers first go, but that doesn't mean camping out on it when people are clearly waiting.

It's an observation I am frequently entertained by, people commenting on Colorado threads that are from say....Phoenix. Each area has their own local ethics and giving an opinion, as vehemently as people sometimes do, on local issues is entertaining to me regardless of whether or not the original poster is my buddy. Making light of this seems rather petty.

So let's look at the "TOPIC OF THE THREAD" which is weather or not to practice aid climbing on a gorgeous weekend on the areas most popular crack climb. The topic of the thread is not the relative skill of who is climbing it or whether of not the aid climbers are nice guys for letting them in or not. As usual the original topic at hand has digressed into a spaghetti monster. So, back to the topic...
For those that are not familiar with Boulder area climbing, believe it or not there are very few good, sustained crack climbs at any grade. There are over 1500 routes in Boulder Canyon and of those 1500 routes there are 17 3-4star Trad lines between the grades of 11a and 11c. Of those 17 there is only one 4 star route and that's C.C.C.
So Adam (who is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet) is not being an egotistical D-Bag here. He is merely expressing a valid concern for the local scene.
and to all the hard core ethics guys there that say first come first serve etc... yeah I agree with that too, but wasn't it those same hard-nosed old school ethics that strictly enforced good style and the respect there of?

1500 routes .... 1 4star 5.11 this is not an unreasonable local concern.

Nothing will be right until people stop aiding rock that has been free climbed regardless of the grade.

Aiding is not climbing. Not anymore.

Where is Sven in this discussion? If the aiders and "free" climbers had just used a three point flash plan then they wouldn't have had to spend hours on a route that should take about 15 minutes to lead.

And big hugs to you Ben! How are we every going to educate this unruly crowd on how to climb properly? It's a sad state of affairs.

Offer some other good aid routes and.......get there earlier. First come first serve. And I thought entitlement belonged to the younger generations. CR is good training for Yosemite. We happen to be in prime Yosemite season. If you don't like it move to Wyoming. More untouched lines than you can shake your dick at.

I shook my dick at an untouched climb in Wyoming and due to the terms of parole, I am not allowed back. I would not recommend it.

I was at the gym tonight, and someone said "hey there is a thread on MP about you aiding last weekend." Couldn't really believe it!! I was one of the girls from the second aid party last Saturday. The situation described is correct. We showed up and there was one pair of guys free climbing, and one pair waiting to aid. We decided to go do Gill crack since no one was on it. Then one of the guys came to tell us that they didn't have time to wait for CCC anymore, and that we could go when the free climbers were done. We waited for hours for them to finish. Honestly, I wasn't irritated at anyone that day. I did think that the free climbers took quite awhile, but hey who am I to judge? One thing I love about climbing is that it has mellowed me out over the years. I'm more patient and less judgmental than I used to be. If anything, waiting for CCC was hard only because it was really hot and I was kind of dehydrated (: P). The guys were really nice, we chatted with them for a bit. Once they were done, we did our thing and there was no one else waiting for the climb that day.
I have both free climbed and aided CCC. Its great in both capacities. I'm having a hard time understanding all the points about not being allowed to comment on this topic if you don't live in Boulder, or about the number of good crack climbs that exist in boulder canyon. I DO live in Boulder, and I can say that this place is shitting great climbs. Eldo is loaded with quality 5.11 climbs. If you took a philosophy or ethics class, i guarantee your professor would shoot down arguments like "well there are only so many climbs, therefore it should be understood that you do NOT aid this on a weekend." That is merely your own personal outlook and philosophy. I agree more with the "get there early if you want the climb." Thats true no matter where you are. Cragging, alpine, ice, whatever. When we showed up late Saturday and I saw all the other people, I said "Shit. Well thats what we get for showing up later." I wasn't mad at anyone.
I try not to climb in general on the weekends, but sometimes with people's work schedules and other commitments it isn't always possible. The person i went with really wanted to learn some more about aid before going to Yosemite in a couple days, and Saturday was the day it could work for us to get together. I've aided some of the other suggestions in this thread in the past, and honestly I think CCC is one of the better ones, especially because its 2 pitches.
Anyway i just feel a little sad that there is a big stink about this. I agree that in general, being good to eachother and practicing common courtesy is the bottom line. Sure the free climbers were kinda slow on Saturday, but as the one who was there waiting that day - I wasn't mad. And I wouldn't have been mad if I was going to free climb it that day either. When I'm pushing my limit on a climb i can be slow, and the last thing i want is someone judging me for that. I try to also extend that courtesy to others.

Ben Walburn wrote: It's an observation I am frequently entertained by, people commenting on Colorado threads that are from say....Phoenix. Each area has their own local ethics and giving an opinion, as vehemently as people sometimes do, on local issues is entertaining to me regardless of whether or not the original poster is my buddy. Making light of this seems rather petty. So let's look at the "TOPIC OF THE THREAD" which is weather or not to practice aid climbing on a gorgeous weekend on the areas most popular crack climb. The topic of the thread is not the relative skill of who is climbing it or whether of not the aid climbers are nice guys for letting them in or not. As usual the original topic at hand has digressed into a spaghetti monster. So, back to the topic... For those that are not familiar with Boulder area climbing, believe it or not there are very few good, sustained crack climbs at any grade. There are over 1500 routes in Boulder Canyon and of those 1500 routes there are 17 3-4star Trad lines between the grades of 11a and 11c. Of those 17 there is only one 4 star route and that's C.C.C. So Adam (who is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet) is not being an egotistical D-Bag here. He is merely expressing a valid concern for the local scene. and to all the hard core ethics guys there that say first come first serve etc... yeah I agree with that too, but wasn't it those same hard-nosed old school ethics that strictly enforced good style and the respect there of? 1500 routes .... 1 4star 5.11 this is not an unreasonable local concern.

I was not going to comment, but I just cannot help myself.

The post above is quite simply a bunch of steaming shit that smells vaguely of entitlement and false superiority. Sorry, Ben, but it is first come first served. If you or Adam have an issue with someone, take it up with them in a respectful manner at the crag instead of coming here and whining about it after the fact. All your blather about stars, local ethics and whatever else is just a distraction from your main point; you think you have the right to tell people how to climb. You don't, and I don't have to be from Boulder to know that.

I will leave it to you to have the last word. I'm out.

adam brink wrote:And big hugs to you Ben! How are we every going to educate this unruly crowd on how to climb properly? It's a sad state of affairs.

You guys should space dock on Country Club Crack. I hear it's really good for space docking.

Sarah Malone wrote:If you took a philosophy or ethics class, i guarantee your professor would shoot down arguments like "well there are only so many climbs, therefore it should be understood that you do NOT aid this on a weekend."

I did take a moral philosophy class in college & I think you can easily make a convincingly sounding case for it. But of course, if anything, the class taught me how to take up any position & argue for it.

The first come first served policy is found on fairness, not necessarily of the common good. It obviously isn't efficient a lot of time (like camping outside the Apple store for a new phone, or at the base of a route before light so you'll be guaranteed first). When it's the matter of traffic, we've enacted laws so the slower vehicles have to move over (to the right lane on a multi-lane road, or even the shoulder on a single lane road (yes, that is the law in many states)).

My understanding is first come first served isn't the climbing ethic for most places in Europe, and if that's not the prevalent ethic in Boulder/CO, the rest of you not from here need to STFU: it's not a magic rule, it's a local ethic. Of course, the ethic frequently displayed around Boulder is the self-serving one, so there is that.