Girth Hitch Sling to Hangar

Last time I was at the Tower I was bringing up three people and b/c we were going pretty slow I let two guided parties to pass us. When I caught up with each group (2 independent guiding companies) at different belays I noticed both party's anchor set up was a double length nylon sling girth hitched to one hangar (beefy big hangers, not sharp old school hangars) and a locker on the other hanger with an overhand knot for the master point. I've looked around on here and online and this seems acceptable to maybe save a little time and one carabiner but my specific question is how much load would you trust on a sling girth hitched to a hanger. I ask because I will be climbing with a party of three and both climbs we plan on doing will have semi-hanging belays and therefore we'll have two or three people weighing the anchor at any one given time. Please answer the topic at hand as I am just curious on people's thoughts on this technique; I am well aware of a variety of other anchor setups that we will most likely be using instead (ie "just use the rope").

By Beefy Big Anchors are you referring to the Metolious Rap Hanger that are larger than a normal fixe or petzl hanger?

Besides the normal strength reduction inherent with girth-hitching a sling to something, if it's the extrawide surface of the rap hangers then those are comparable to the surface area of a locking biner.

I can't recall if it was those hangars. Let's just assume they were not.

Wilson,
I have used those bolts and they are beefy and rounded as you stated. I personally would use biners at both bolts to not compromise the strength of the sling unless I had previously used them all up. Nylon slings have less strength loss than hybrid nylons when they are tied. With 4 people possibly hanging on an anchor, I would make sure there would be no guesswork as to whether it would hold us all in a worst case scenario.
Cheers

Personally I would never girth hitch a nylon double length runner sling to a hangar or on a piece of gear you placed for a anchor. That is just bad practice I think. Even if they are beefy hangars, it looks a lot better with biners on each hangar and cleaner than a girth hitched sling. Always use biners on bolts I say... And the master point should be a figure eight, not a overhand, my personal thought though.

Is it ideal? No.

Is it going to introduce the possibility of cutting at forces anywhere near the forces your group is likely to generate? Also no.

If the hanger is sharp and you are looking at factor 1+ falls on it and your webbing is old, you could in theory have a problem.

FWIW, I had a very near factor 2 only once. The rope was clipped to an old piece of tat girth hitch to and dangling from one of the anchor bolts. I got 10 or so feet up and fell. That old piece of tat took the force of the entire fall. It held. It was rather remote and rarely climbed. The tat had to be at least 2-3 years old and could have been up to 15 (the FA happened that long ago and the route isn't popular).

If that held, I certainly wouldn't stress taking your buddies toproping up the tower.

Edited to add. Travrack, I always avoid climbing with people who speak in absolutes.

Good points. We will most likely be using the rope since we'll be swinging leads, but I was curios as to why guides (again two different groups at separate belays) were using this technique.

TKeagle wrote:I've seen spectra/nylon/tat blow up plenty when it looked perfectly good otherwise.

Without using the words John or Sherman, name two examples out of your plenty.

nicelegs wrote: Without using the words John or Sherman, name two examples out of your plenty.

Yo nice legs, your quite the dick ya know? Post a forum on that if you want to keep talking. Just saying.

Travkrack wrote: Yo nice legs, your quite the dick ya know? Post a forum on that if you want to keep talking. Just saying.

My comment barely scratched the surface of the inanity of your statement. Had I wanted to be a dick, I could have.

If you were offended, it's probably due to an unfounded emotional attachment to absurd and absolutist claims. Rather than lash out at me, I would recommend a decade of climbing. I have seen that most gumby statements (even ones I've made in the past) are usually rectified with experience.

Finally, a word on absolutes. In this life you'll definitely shart at an inopportune moment. You'll definitely eat a rotten grape. You'll definitely stub your toe and you'll definitely die. Everything else has varying degrees of absolution including paying taxes and anchor setup.

Bump this thread in a decade, let me know how it went.

I do this pretty frequently on welded cold shuts, rap hangers, rings, quicklinks, and chains. I girth hitch one side then thread the cord thru the other hanger before pulling it all down to tie a bight knot (overhand or 8, somebody show me an example where it actually matters for anything except the difficulty in untying).

I do it because it saves time and gear. When I have clients pulling the anchor to follow a pitch there is less stuff to confuse them and less of my gear for them to drop. Not worried in the least about the girth hitch blowing but if it did the other side is doubled up. I don't do it with skinny runners or on sharp hangers for obvious reasons. Have used it plenty with parties of 4 and no problems (not that lack of problems means anything).

Wilson On The Drums wrote:I let two guided parties to pass us. When I caught up with each group (2 independent guiding companies) at different belays I noticed both party's anchor set up was a double length nylon sling girth hitched to one hangar (beefy big hangers, not sharp old school hangars) and a locker on the other hanger with an overhand knot for the master point.

I think you answered your own question within your question statement... You let them pass, then you caught up with them. Three parties on the same route (at least one of them is more than two people), sharing belays. The guides were trying to be nice and not hog the anchors with biners.

TKeagle wrote:I've seen spectra/nylon/tat blow up plenty when it looked perfectly good otherwise.

I have an opposite anecdote. I was once with a group when we helped pull out our friend's Prius with Toyota Tundra out of a ditch, using a bunch of old discarded tat. At first we tried to use a brand new heavy duty fastener but it snapped, so our only option was a bunch of tat we brought down from the cliff to discard (it was a mangled mess of old webbing and pins, and cords that someone had cleaned from routes). The webbing was cut in places and so weathered that bleached white (from knots it looked like it used to be bright red) - that's how bad it was. Nevertheless it held up better than a brand new thingy.

nicelegs wrote: My comment barely scratched the surface of the inanity of your statement. Had I wanted to be a dick, I could have. If you were offended, it's probably due to an unfounded emotional attachment to absurd and absolutist claims. Rather than lash out at me, I would recommend a decade of climbing. I have seen that most gumby statements (even ones I've made in the past) are usually rectified with experience. Finally, a word on absolutes. In this life you'll definitely shart at an inopportune moment. You'll definitely eat a rotten grape. You'll definitely stub your toe and you'll definitely die. Everything else has varying degrees of absolution including paying taxes and anchor setup. Bump this thread in a decade, let me know how it went.

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Plus 1 for Nicelegs.

#1 Rule: "Live to tell"

Friday I had a hanger with a set of double Metolius rings and a hanger with a single Metolius ring. The assignment: set up a top rope from a fully hanging position on a steep limestone project route

I had a nylon sling and a spectra sling and 4 locking carabiners. I threaded one sling through the topmost ring in the double set, brought it down matched loops and clipped 2 locking biners - gates reversed into both loops. The second sling was threaded just the same and had 2 locking biners, but through the single ring on the other hanger. Brought the 2 points together and checked they were about equalized. I could have used standard D biners or better ovals and been just as confident and comfortable with the anchor.

Doing it this way I had adequate space for a PAS and a backup sling into the PAS. A also had room to un-clip so I could lower.

Clipped the rope and proceeded to lower myself using a grigi.

This is not the only way I might have set this up. Sometimes I'll girth hitch into the hanger. In fact I prefer that in sandstone. There is some research indicating it's poor practice to girth hitch kevlar slings. So why take the chance? Is it worth debating? hmmm...
Last week someone I met out there set it up with carabiners and doubled slings. Prior to that one of my climbing partners set it up with a quick draw and a knotted sling.

Things I look for in an anchor.
Can I evaluate it quickly?
Is it redundant and multi-directional?
How much extension is possible if one component or set of components fails? How efficient is it to set up?
Do any inefficiencies offset the degree of safety and reliability? and are they justified?.

I might comment that at the belay "what tools are available' can affect the time and efficiency. However when I encounter multiple anchor systems built up on bolted anchors by my partner at the station I begin to question that person's experience and confidence.

If you are swinging leads I don't see much reason to use anything but the climbing rope to anchor in. I do know a lot of bolted face climbs got/get done with a single long sling, 2 carabiners clipped into 2 bolt hangers, bring down the sling, cross the strands for sliding equalization; clip in 2 carabiners- gates reversed. Clove hitch your rope and back it up with figure 8 and done.

Guides are concerned with speed and safety. It's poor customer relations to kill your clients and almost always means the end of your guiding career. Guides of multiple parties will set up the anchor for hauling/lowering, switching leads, belaying off the anchor; many more considerations than a competent party of 2 might need to be concerned with. Then again it could be that's the way the guides were taught and they never use any other method for bolted anchors.

As Nicelegs says there are no absolutes here.

Hope this helps....

Threading a sling through a ring, rap hanger, chain link, harness belay loop, tunnel, hourglass, or other sling (or around a block, flake, or tree trunk), so that it's doubled, is MORE than twice as strong as the same sling girth-hitched through (or around) any one of those. A doubled sling also takes up less space in a ring or rap hanger than does a girth-hitched sling.

Of course, the sharp edges of most bolt hangers and the rough edges of harness belay loops can cut or abrade slings, especially the soft Mammut 8mm Contact (almost 100% Spectra) slings that Sherman had girth-hitched to his belay loop and loaded repeatedly. "Contact" is an ironic name for those slings, because the only things those should contact while under load are carabiners. If Sherman had girth-hitched those through the tie-in path of his harness, he probably wouldn't have had a problem.

Kevlar is dangerous for use in climbing slings (cord), because its brittle fibers have been seen to break down and crumble after repeated flexing, especially around sharp bends.

George Bracksieck wrote: Kevlar is dangerous for use in climbing slings (cord), because its brittle fibers have been seen to break down and crumble after repeated flexing, especially around sharp bends.

What do this have to do with the topic we're discussing???

Black Diamond has some articles provided at the website where they have done some pull testing on different sling/anchor configurations.......maybe none exactly as you describe......but worth a look for reference.

George Bracksieck wrote: Of course, the sharp edges of most bolt hangers and the rough edges of harness belay loops can cut or abrade slings, especially the soft Mammut 8mm Contact (almost 100% Spectra) slings that Sherman had girth-hitched to his belay loop and loaded repeatedly. "Contact" is an ironic name for those slings, because the only things those should contact while under load are carabiners. If Sherman had girth-hitched those through the tie-in path of his harness, he probably wouldn't have had a problem. Kevlar is dangerous for use in climbing slings (cord), because its brittle fibers have been seen to break down and crumble after repeated flexing, especially around sharp bends.

And the misinformation brings me back!

The girth hitched sling that failed for Sherman was on an anchor, not on his harness. Black Diamond did extensive tests on that sling and ones like it and eventually determined it had been mostly cut with a blade. The look of the fibers and fraying of the failure was not consistent with the way a girth hitch broke. Even when they broke, it was at loads that were well in excess of the forces one could conceivably generate. The failure caused a swing but the rest held and Sherman is still alive.

The question still remains, who cut John Shermans anchor?

To clear up misinformation, Todd Skinner had a daisy chain girth hitched to his belay loop. The girth hitch didn't fail, the belay loop broke (you can look up the details of this, it's been covered extensively and this thread has absolutely nothing to do with the circumstances involved in his death).

I don't know why I'm bothering. I anchor with the rope and non locking biners or set up topropes with quickdraws. I guess it just annoys me to see post-noobs (not quite beginners but not yet experienced enough to say much) talking about girth hitches like they are even on the list of things that can kill you.

Gunkiemike wrote: "What does this have to do with the topic we're discussing???"

Because Thomas Beck wrote: "There is some research indicating it's poor practice to girth hitch kevlar slings."

nicelegs wrote: "The girth hitched sling that failed for Sherman was on an anchor, not on his harness. Black Diamond did extensive tests on that sling and ones like it and eventually determined it had been mostly cut with a blade. The look of the fibers and fraying of the failure was not consistent with the way a girth hitch broke. Even when they broke, it was at loads that were well in excess of the forces one could conceivably generate. The failure caused a swing but the rest held and Sherman is still alive."

Thanks for correcting me. I wrote what I had heard about Sherman's experience. I hadn't heard or read more about it. And I hadn't heard or read what you are relating here.

its totally and utterly fine

its redundant, sufficiently strong (especially with rope in the system), and theres no extension if done properly

as long as the hangers arent sharp and are the kind you can rap off, the girth hitch wont get cut

i do it all the time to minimize the gear used at an anchor

for a 240 cm sling (especially the dyneema ones) you can girth hitch one side, pull the sling through the other ring ... and pull down the middle and the end and tie those into a fig8/9 and you have just used two less biners on the anchor while shortening the sling

just be aware that if other parties are rapping down this might not be the best if they need the rings/rap bolts

;)