Long rapell, inadvertent firemans belay.
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After a really nice climb we did a double rope rap, 198'. My partner was concerned because at the beginning of the rap she had a tough time getting things moving. I couldn't find anything wrong with her rigging. |
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Makes sense. |
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Simon W wrote:Makes sense. Especially if she was using an autoblock and/or rappelling with 10MM or < ropesThe weight of the double ropes will definitely make it harder to get started. I think the above poster meant "especially if she was,,, rappelling with a 10mm or larger rope." Larger rope means more weight and more friction through the device. |
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If you pull up really close to the anchor, the angle of the rope through the device makes it hard to get going. Sometimes you just have to slowly feed rope at the correct angle to get started. |
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Drew Hayes wrote:If you pull up really close to the anchor, the angle of the rope through the device makes it hard to get going. Sometimes you just have to slowly feed rope at the correct angle to get started.Agreed. This happens to my wife on Seal Rock. It's a 165' rap. With your non-braking hand "feed" or "pull" rope up through the atc. It usually effects her for the first 20 feet then she's fine the rest of the way. |
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Yep, 10mm rope and auto-block. |
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I came across an interesting one recently. My buddy had to force himself down a rappel recently. It was low angle, so obviously that was a factor. But here's the scoop. He thinks using a smaller carabiner gave him more friction. I was immediately like, "No, what the?" but then it made sense. While I always thought the bigger the biner, the more friction, e.g. why we use two biners for more friction. His smaller carabiner was getting sucked up into the ATC further effectively making the rope turn even tighter/ pinched in a way that caused more friction. |
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Yup. Rope weight is a big factor. I've had to feed a single rope through a device to get going on a 260' completely free rappel... and I'm 6'2", 200lbs! So add much lighter body-weight, greater friction (double ropes) and less force (at least some contact with rock) and yeah...would definitely be difficult to get going |
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the reason other folks above have stated |
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Really, you just need to keep both hands below the ATC. I wouldn't worry about some really specific method. It's not like the device will go from having too much friction to move, to having no friction and you slip and fall, in a few meters. You'll feel a gradual reduction in the friction until you can rappel normally. |
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If I'm rappelling on a thick rope with a Reverso or ATC Guide, I usually turn it around so that I'm not using the toothed side. Those teeth just add way too much friction on two strands of thick rope. |
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Ian Stewart wrote:... ATC Guide, I usually turn it around so that I'm not using the toothed side. ...if you still find yourself in need of feeding the rope into the device, it can be a good idea to extend your belayI use an ATC guide and have never reversed it. Can't see that it really makes a big difference. But then, at 220lbs I never have a slow rap problem. We extend our rappel device, (about eye level, I like keeping an eye on that puppy) we use auto blocks that can't possibly reach the ATC. I hold the auto block in my left hand and place my right hand by my rear hip. Triple brakes. If I need to feed I can pull up with my right and allow the slack to slide through the auto-block with my left. |
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Dallas R wrote: I use an ATC guide and have never reversed it. Can't see that it really makes a big difference. But then, at 220lbs I never have a slow rap problem. We extend our rappel device, (about eye level, I like keeping an eye on that puppy) we use auto blocks that can't possibly reach the ATC. I hold the auto block in my left hand and place my right hand by my rear hip. Triple brakes. If I need to feed I can pull up with my right and allow the slack to slide through the auto-block with my left.http://youtu.be/KM5c9wlTReo This explains using the friction vs regular set up on the BD Guide. |
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It makes more sense for only the first person down to use an autoblock and use a fireman's belay for everyone else, so I'd say go first and have your wife rap second without the autoblock; that will make it a little easier to feed rope at the beginning of the rappel and is a better alternative anyway. If she does this, she might also forgo extending the rappel device, which adds friction to the system by allowing for a sharper bend in the brake strand. |
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Weight of the climber matters (as said above) |
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As others have said, this is normal. Generally you just need to feed the rope through -- similar to lowering a child on a TR when there is a bit of friction... sometimes it feels like you need to push the rope through the device. |
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Mike Caracciolo wrote: youtu.be/KM5c9wlTReo This explains using the friction vs regular set up on the BD Guide.Mike, I have watched that vid several times, I never really paid much attention to the 18 seconds of regular friction vs. high friction. I guess I always assumed high friction to be the correct choice. I have yet to have any issue with the high friction set-up and still think it the more prudent use of the ATC Guide, of course, this is just the opinion of a fairly new climber. I am sure that as I gain more experience I will also gain more wisdom. rgold wrote:It makes more sense for only the first person down to use an auto-block and use a fireman's belay for everyone else, so I'd say go first and have your wife rap second without the autoblock; that will make it a little easier to feed rope at the beginning of the rappel and is a better alternative anyway. If she does this, she might also forgo extending the rappel device, which adds friction to the system by allowing for a sharper bend in the brake strand.Rgold, I value your opinion greatly. I am a bit of a worrier. I think the above is acceptable in shorter rappels where you can observe the rappel. In this case the rap went over a couple of ledges, I could only see her the last 75 of the rap. It would be an interesting ride for 125 until I could observe there was a problem and apply the firemans belay. As we gain more experience we will experiment with the above procedure. rgold wrote:In addition to turning around the tube, one can also try using two carabiners, only one of which is clipped to the belay loop. When the second carabiner is clipped to the belay loop, friction is increased, but it is decreased if there is a second carabiner not clipped to the belay loop. .I didnt quite follow that; both carabineers clipped through the ATC and rope? One clipped to belay loop and one not? rgold wrote: Finally can pull up say fifty feet of slack and attach it to your harness in one of several releasable waysI have observed a dual rope saddle bag rappel. Where each rope is stacked in a sling so that it will feed out as the decent is made. One rope on each side of the belt held in a sling. Quite complicated and appears to have the potential for a real mess if not handled with care. I hope to be that accomplished one day, until then I will keep things simple and safe, even if they are slow. kevin deweese wrote:Weight of the climber matters (as said above) I'm 118lbs and have had trouble starting long raps where my partners 180+lbs had no issuesThats us! Be safe! Climb On! |
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Dallas R wrote: I think the above is acceptable in shorter rappels where you can observe the rappel. In this case the rap went over a couple of ledges, I could only see her the last 75 of the rap.True, the fireman's belay doesn't work so well when you csn't see the rappeller. Dallas R wrote: I didnt quite follow that; both carabineers clipped through the ATC and rope? One clipped to belay loop and one not?Right. Dallas R wrote: I have observed a dual rope saddle bag rappel. Where each rope is stacked in a sling so that it will feed out as the descent is made. One rope on each side of the belt held in a sling. Quite complicated and appears to have the potential for a real mess if not handled with care. Yes I agree. It is pretty easy for at least one of the two "saddles" to tangle and the feeding from both sides of the body to a hand on one side is awkward. Personally, I find it better to extend the rap device and flake both ropes together over it as you would when flaking the rope in a hanging belay. But it still can tangle if you don't stack it carefully to begin with. In any case, stacking the entire rappel wasn't what I was suggesting. |
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Dallas R wrote: Mike, I have watched that vid several times, I never really paid much attention to the 18 seconds of regular friction vs. high friction. I guess I always assumed high friction to be the correct choice. I have yet to have any issue with the high friction set-up and still think it the more prudent use of the ATC Guide, of course, this is just the opinion of a fairly new climber. I am sure that as I gain more experience I will also gain more wisdom.So the high friction vs. regular. Before I owned the Guide I had the less expensive BD ATC. No matter which way it was used it was always regular. As my partner and I started expanding our climbing I needed the BD Guide. Like you, I assumed the high friction side was the only way to go. Until, I was on rapel using the high friction side and had a hell of a time coming down. I researched, found that video and now use my best judgement given the situation. In the gym top roping my wife, regular. Trad or sport, high friction. Rapel, regular. I guess the point being is that there is high friction and regular, not less friction. So, at no point does using the regular side become "less" than normal. |
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Rgold, Mike, thank you both for your responses. I have learned from the discussion. |
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Tom Sherman wrote:I came across an interesting one recently. My buddy had to force himself down a rappel recently. It was low angle, so obviously that was a factor. But here's the scoop. He thinks using a smaller carabiner gave him more friction. I was immediately like, "No, what the?" but then it made sense. While I always thought the bigger the biner, the more friction, e.g. why we use two biners for more friction. His smaller carabiner was getting sucked up into the ATC further effectively making the rope turn even tighter/ pinched in a way that caused more friction. Anyone else have similar experience? Found this interesting.That is absolutely the case. A large a smooth radius carabiner will give FAR less friction than a narrow I-beam style carabiner. Two carabiners will often give more friction than one because again 2 carbiners don't have a circular cross section. I actually use the choice of my carabiner as my primary way of controlling the friction when belaying or abseiling. Also if I am using autoblock on the reverso for bringing up a second I always use a smooth fat carabine to ensure low friction which makes the belay far easier. |