Long rapell, inadvertent firemans belay.

After a really nice climb we did a double rope rap, 198'. My partner was concerned because at the beginning of the rap she had a tough time getting things moving. I couldn't find anything wrong with her rigging.

My best guess was that the weight of the double ropes was sufficient to cause an "inadvertent" fireman's belay. The weight of the rope causing enough friction on the bell ATC to slow her down.

Does this make sense or am I FOS.

Makes sense.

Especially if she was using an autoblock and/or rappelling with 10MM or < ropes

Simon W wrote:Makes sense. Especially if she was using an autoblock and/or rappelling with 10MM or < ropes

The weight of the double ropes will definitely make it harder to get started. I think the above poster meant "especially if she was,,, rappelling with a 10mm or larger rope." Larger rope means more weight and more friction through the device.

If you pull up really close to the anchor, the angle of the rope through the device makes it hard to get going. Sometimes you just have to slowly feed rope at the correct angle to get started.

Drew Hayes wrote:If you pull up really close to the anchor, the angle of the rope through the device makes it hard to get going. Sometimes you just have to slowly feed rope at the correct angle to get started.

Agreed. This happens to my wife on Seal Rock. It's a 165' rap. With your non-braking hand "feed" or "pull" rope up through the atc. It usually effects her for the first 20 feet then she's fine the rest of the way.

Yep, 10mm rope and auto-block.

I came across an interesting one recently. My buddy had to force himself down a rappel recently. It was low angle, so obviously that was a factor. But here's the scoop. He thinks using a smaller carabiner gave him more friction. I was immediately like, "No, what the?" but then it made sense. While I always thought the bigger the biner, the more friction, e.g. why we use two biners for more friction. His smaller carabiner was getting sucked up into the ATC further effectively making the rope turn even tighter/ pinched in a way that caused more friction.

Anyone else have similar experience? Found this interesting.

Yup. Rope weight is a big factor. I've had to feed a single rope through a device to get going on a 260' completely free rappel... and I'm 6'2", 200lbs! So add much lighter body-weight, greater friction (double ropes) and less force (at least some contact with rock) and yeah...would definitely be difficult to get going

the reason other folks above have stated

one way around it at the start is to use the "feed method" of rapping

most folks just try to sit down and slide the rope through, which is absolutely fine as long as theres not too much friction ...

the feed method tries to feed the ATC

- both hands under the ATC

- the right hand (if right handed) stays fixed down by yr hip

- the left hand stays above the right hand

- the left hand pulls up about a foot or two of slack, comes a bit parallel and "feeds" the ATC (think lead belaying)

- left hand slides back down to the right and process repeats ... think pull and feed ....

- because the angle is decreasing there is less friction ... however it is still very safe because the right hand is still solidly on the brake below the ATC

- this works with an autoblock backup as well ... same motion ... rather than trying to slide down the autoblock you keep the right hand on the autoblock and pull up and feed with your left hand

- if your backup is set too tight and you figure out this after you start rapping (cant untie the backup mid rap) ... the feed method will get you down easier

the other thing that helps the problem is for the heavier person to go first ... and the lighter person not to use a friction backup but rather get a firemans

this is the way you would do it anyways on not so stellar anchors (heaviest person goes down with a backup piece)

;)

Really, you just need to keep both hands below the ATC. I wouldn't worry about some really specific method. It's not like the device will go from having too much friction to move, to having no friction and you slip and fall, in a few meters. You'll feel a gradual reduction in the friction until you can rappel normally.

If I'm rappelling on a thick rope with a Reverso or ATC Guide, I usually turn it around so that I'm not using the toothed side. Those teeth just add way too much friction on two strands of thick rope.

Also, if you still find yourself in need of feeding the rope into the device, it can be a good idea to extend your belay device with a sling or something. It gives you a lot more room to feed the rope and makes it a bit less likely to catch your hand in the device or something.

Ian Stewart wrote:... ATC Guide, I usually turn it around so that I'm not using the toothed side. ...if you still find yourself in need of feeding the rope into the device, it can be a good idea to extend your belay

I use an ATC guide and have never reversed it. Can't see that it really makes a big difference. But then, at 220lbs I never have a slow rap problem.

We extend our rappel device, (about eye level, I like keeping an eye on that puppy) we use auto blocks that can't possibly reach the ATC. I hold the auto block in my left hand and place my right hand by my rear hip. Triple brakes.

If I need to feed I can pull up with my right and allow the slack to slide through the auto-block with my left.

Dallas R wrote: I use an ATC guide and have never reversed it. Can't see that it really makes a big difference. But then, at 220lbs I never have a slow rap problem. We extend our rappel device, (about eye level, I like keeping an eye on that puppy) we use auto blocks that can't possibly reach the ATC. I hold the auto block in my left hand and place my right hand by my rear hip. Triple brakes. If I need to feed I can pull up with my right and allow the slack to slide through the auto-block with my left.

http://youtu.be/KM5c9wlTReo

This explains using the friction vs regular set up on the BD Guide.

It makes more sense for only the first person down to use an autoblock and use a fireman's belay for everyone else, so I'd say go first and have your wife rap second without the autoblock; that will make it a little easier to feed rope at the beginning of the rappel and is a better alternative anyway. If she does this, she might also forgo extending the rappel device, which adds friction to the system by allowing for a sharper bend in the brake strand.

In addition to turning around the tube, one can also try using two carabiners, only one of which is clipped to the belay loop. When the second carabiner is clipped to the belay loop, friction is increased, but it is decreased if there is a second carabiner not clipped to the belay loop.

Finally, if you know from experience that the rappel feeds well after descending, say, forty feet, then you can pull up say fifty feet of slack and attach it to your harness in one of several releasable ways (should be releaseable with one hand). Rappel as usual (rope weight will only be the fifty feet) until the pulled-up slack is nearly all used up (at which point you'll be forty feet or so down), release the knot, and continue rapping. Note however, if you use this method, that the fireman's belay won't work during the initial phase so you'd either want your autoblock or are comfortable without it for a while.

A caution about friction-reducing methods: they reduce friction at the end of the rappel too, when there is little rope weight to help with braking. So one does want to make sure that any friction-reducing strategy does not backfire by making the end of the rappel hard to control. All this means that any of the strategies should be practiced first with an upper belay to make sure everything will work safely.

Weight of the climber matters (as said above)

I'm 118lbs and have had trouble starting long raps where my partners 180+lbs had no issues

As others have said, this is normal. Generally you just need to feed the rope through -- similar to lowering a child on a TR when there is a bit of friction... sometimes it feels like you need to push the rope through the device.

Mike Caracciolo wrote: youtu.be/KM5c9wlTReo This explains using the friction vs regular set up on the BD Guide.

Mike, I have watched that vid several times, I never really paid much attention to the 18 seconds of “regular” friction vs. “high” friction. I guess I always assumed high friction to be the correct choice. I have yet to have any issue with the high friction set-up and still think it the more prudent use of the ATC Guide, of course, this is just the opinion of a fairly new climber. I am sure that as I gain more experience I will also gain more wisdom.

rgold wrote:It makes more sense for only the first person down to use an auto-block and use a fireman's belay for everyone else, so I'd say go first and have your wife rap second without the autoblock; that will make it a little easier to feed rope at the beginning of the rappel and is a better alternative anyway. If she does this, she might also forgo extending the rappel device, which adds friction to the system by allowing for a sharper bend in the brake strand. …

Rgold, I value your opinion greatly. I am a bit of a worrier. I think the above is acceptable in shorter rappels where you can observe the rappel. In this case the rap went over a couple of ledges, I could only see her the last 75’ of the rap. It would be an interesting ride for 125’ until I could observe there was a problem and apply the fireman’s belay. As we gain more experience we will experiment with the above procedure.

rgold wrote:In addition to turning around the tube, one can also try using two carabiners, only one of which is clipped to the belay loop. When the second carabiner is clipped to the belay loop, friction is increased, but it is decreased if there is a second carabiner not clipped to the belay loop. .

I didn’t quite follow that; both carabineer’s clipped through the ATC and rope? One clipped to belay loop and one not?

rgold wrote: Finally… can pull up say fifty feet of slack and attach it to your harness in one of several releasable ways

I have observed a dual rope “saddle bag” rappel. Where each rope is stacked in a sling so that it will feed out as the decent is made. One rope on each side of the belt held in a sling. Quite complicated and appears to have the potential for a real mess if not handled with care. I hope to be that accomplished one day, until then I will keep things simple and safe, even if they are slow.

kevin deweese wrote:Weight of the climber matters (as said above) I'm 118lbs and have had trouble starting long raps where my partners 180+lbs had no issues

That’s us!

Be safe! Climb On!

Dallas R wrote: I think the above is acceptable in shorter rappels where you can observe the rappel. In this case the rap went over a couple of ledges, I could only see her the last 75’ of the rap.

True, the fireman's belay doesn't work so well when you csn't see the rappeller.

Dallas R wrote: I didn’t quite follow that; both carabineer’s clipped through the ATC and rope? One clipped to belay loop and one not?

Right.

Dallas R wrote: I have observed a dual rope “saddle bag” rappel. Where each rope is stacked in a sling so that it will feed out as the descent is made. One rope on each side of the belt held in a sling. Quite complicated and appears to have the potential for a real mess if not handled with care.

Yes I agree. It is pretty easy for at least one of the two "saddles" to tangle and the feeding from both sides of the body to a hand on one side is awkward. Personally, I find it better to extend the rap device and flake both ropes together over it as you would when flaking the rope in a hanging belay. But it still can tangle if you don't stack it carefully to begin with. In any case, stacking the entire rappel wasn't what I was suggesting.

Dallas R wrote: Mike, I have watched that vid several times, I never really paid much attention to the 18 seconds of “regular” friction vs. “high” friction. I guess I always assumed high friction to be the correct choice. I have yet to have any issue with the high friction set-up and still think it the more prudent use of the ATC Guide, of course, this is just the opinion of a fairly new climber. I am sure that as I gain more experience I will also gain more wisdom.

So the high friction vs. regular. Before I owned the Guide I had the less expensive BD ATC. No matter which way it was used it was always regular. As my partner and I started expanding our climbing I needed the BD Guide. Like you, I assumed the high friction side was the only way to go. Until, I was on rapel using the high friction side and had a hell of a time coming down. I researched, found that video and now use my best judgement given the situation.
In the gym top roping my wife, regular.
Trad or sport, high friction.
Rapel, regular.

I guess the point being is that there is high friction and regular, not less friction. So, at no point does using the regular side become "less" than normal.

Rgold, Mike, thank you both for your responses. I have learned from the discussion.

Tom Sherman wrote:I came across an interesting one recently. My buddy had to force himself down a rappel recently. It was low angle, so obviously that was a factor. But here's the scoop. He thinks using a smaller carabiner gave him more friction. I was immediately like, "No, what the?" but then it made sense. While I always thought the bigger the biner, the more friction, e.g. why we use two biners for more friction. His smaller carabiner was getting sucked up into the ATC further effectively making the rope turn even tighter/ pinched in a way that caused more friction. Anyone else have similar experience? Found this interesting.

That is absolutely the case. A large a smooth radius carabiner will give FAR less friction than a narrow I-beam style carabiner. Two carabiners will often give more friction than one because again 2 carbiners don't have a circular cross section.

I actually use the choice of my carabiner as my primary way of controlling the friction when belaying or abseiling. Also if I am using autoblock on the reverso for bringing up a second I always use a smooth fat carabine to ensure low friction which makes the belay far easier.