Capital Reef climbers draw fines after their photo is used in the Patagonia catalog

SoBrave wrote:J. Albers, can you provide some evidence that Patagonia doesn't pay CA taxes? From what I found (linked above) they seem to still be registered and headquartered firmly in Ventura. It seems like you have a serious personal bias against them.

Actually I quite like Patagonia products and my previous statements probably communicate a bit more displeasure with them then I actually have. All things considered, Patagonia is a pretty decent company. Moreover you are partially right about the tax issue. To make my earlier statement more precise, Patagonia moved their distribution facilities to NV while leaving their business office in Ventura (FYI, some of my info comes from discussions with a long term Ventura employee). Anyway, they moved their shipping facilities in no small part to "lower operating costs", which is corporate lingo for shaving tax burden and employee wage constraints. This certainly isn't anywhere near enough of dick move to advocate boycotting them as Keen is factiously suggesting, but I do find it sort of funny given the fact that Patagonia's PR machine tries to make them look like angels. Not a big hypocrisy, but interesting nonetheless.

Keen Butterworth wrote:maybe another five minutes to find out there is a bolting ban in Capital Reef.

As a climber who lived out west for a decade and frequently made road trips to climb in the desert I never made it to Capital Reef and definitely wasn't aware of the bolting ban there. Do you think the Patagonia employee who picked that photo out of countless others submitted by photographers from all over the world was aware of the bolting ban or is even a climber and would think to look into local bolting policies? Every time you see a photo in a magazine do you instantly look up the bolting policies in said location?

J. Albers wrote:In Patagonia's case, if they don't want to pay taxes in CA, thats totally fine, but then they should move their business to where their actual address is. Otherwise they are asking the tax payers of CA to subsidize their business while NV tax payers get the tax benefit.

I wasn't aware that all Patagonia products were completely designed, manufactured, distributed, and sold only in CA. I'm sure Patagonia has paid more than their fair share of taxes to the state of CA based on the resources they have used.

Yes, but if you were going to Capitol Reef, and you were thinking about bolting, would you not research it? Also, Patagonia is responsible for what it depicts in its catalog, and after the Delicate Arch thing, you would think they would be damn certain, or use their own photographers. Their response to my email, which was worded very politely, was defiant and arrogant. Only after many more complaints filed in did they finally I admit guilt, offer an apology, and drop Potter as a sponsored athlete. And I'm pretty sure they knew the location of Delicate Arch before they published that one! Patagonia has long been associated with the climbing community, and it just reflects poorly on climbers and weakens our ties with the National Park System. I can only vote with my dollar, so that is what I do. I rarely find issue enough to complain about something on Mtn Project, but I treasure these desert areas and the rules are stringent enough already.

will ar wrote: As a climber who lived out west for a decade and frequently made road trips to climb in the desert I never made it to Capital Reef and definitely wasn't aware of the bolting ban there. Do you think the Patagonia employee who picked that photo out of countless others submitted by photographers from all over the world was aware of the bolting ban or is even a climber and would think to look into local bolting policies? Every time you see a photo in a magazine do you instantly look up the bolting policies in said location?

Seeing who Patagonia is, their history, their recent coffee table book of photos that ran in their catalogs (with a cover photo of a young Lynn Hill leading Insomnia at Suicide), the Delicate Arch Dean Potter fiasco, and that they employ "climbing ambassadors", it's perfectly reasonable to expect one of their photo editors to do the basic research. If you Google 'capitol reef climbing regulations', the very first result is:http://www.nps.gov/care/planyourvisit/rockclimbing.htm

And $4k is barely a slap on the wrist for Patagonia. That's less than 6 PowSlayer jackets at MSRP.

There's a lot of speculation in this thread (not surprising) but Patagonia did not drill the bolts and just cause they photo'd the FA doesn't mean they had direct knowledge of the bolts being put in. Not all new climbs require bolts.

In the grand scheme of things I think Patagonia cares more and does more than just about any other major outdoor gear related company out there.

The real responsibility lies with the bolters.

Carry on with the witch hunt.

A couple of comments:

1. I have not seen the photo in question as such I am not sure the bolts are or are not visible. In reading the morning report it is stated: "Rangers identified the route and determined that new bolts had been installed and that trundling of rocks on the route had occurred." As such, it sounds as though because of the photo rangers decided to check things out and then found the bolts and rock trundling as well as a couple of more routes with bolts.

2. Regarding Potter, at the time of his selfish shenanigans in climbing Delicate Arch there were well know rules in place about climbing named arches BUT they were not formally/properly codified. As such, he could not be criminally charged. I believe this is why there may have been back and forth, back peddling in his subsequent firing from Patagonia. The rules have since been codified.

3. Patagonia did not pay any fine. The three climbers involved paid the $4k fine.

My problem. The photo shows these climbers climbing. Evidence reveals rock levering and drilling. Climbers are charged for the damage.

I question how the park service could prove who drilled and levered? Could be climbing a route set by another? May be more evidence than we are previed too, but it just makes me wonder. It's not like they saw pictures of these kids drilling away. Too often Law Enforcement level charges for crimes that would not stand up in court, knowing the cost of a lawyer often dramatically exceed what the fine cost.

Just skeptical is all.

While I do not have all of details the NPS questioned the climbers and it is my understanding they admitted to the bolt installation and rock trundling. Thus probably why a deal was struck. I have not looked but the routes where (at one time/currently) published on some online guide book called Mountain Project :D.

WWJD? Lets all take a moment and pray on it OK???

Years ago, I was busted for something illegal (misdemeanor) within a National Park. We had a gung-ho ranger who's ambitions were to enforce all laws. When I received my citation and certain things were taken from me, I was initially frustrated. During that evening I straightened my ass out and came to the realization that he was doing his job. If he had given me slack that would have been awesome, but he was doing his job. If you go to work and do a sub-par job, do you expect to be rewarded for not fulfilling what is asked of you?

With that being said, if you are not sneaky enough to get out alive.......YER GONNA DIE or be fined 4K

worleybird wrote:Years ago, I was busted for something illegal (misdemeanor) within a National Park. We had a gung-ho ranger who's ambitions were to enforce all laws. When I received my citation and certain things were taken from me, I was initially frustrated. During that evening I straightened my ass out and came to the realization that he was doing his job. If he had given me slack that would have been awesome, but he was doing his job. If you go to work and do a sub-par job, do you expect to be rewarded for not fulfilling what is asked of you? With that being said, if you are not sneaky enough to get out alive.......YER GONNA DIE or be fined 4K

Amen brother worleybird.Its like the guy who was shot and killed nearby here recently, everyone said what a good boy he was until everyone saw his OPEN TO THE PUBLIC Facebook page where he showed himself dealing, holding wads of cash AND holding his middle finger up to the camera.

I think a lot of folks are missing the point concerning this thread and others like it (ie: the illegal use of white chalk at Garden of the Gods). The point is that climbers and (even worse) a climbing company has f@$ked up and if they continue doing so then climbing access will be lost. We have to govern ourselves or else others will govern us and we will not be pleased with the result. Honestly, if I was a high level official at the NPS and everyone bitched and moaned when I pointed out that the rules had been broken then I would be tempted to just ban climbing altogether to avoid the headache.

People like to complain that climbing areas are closed with no warning when in reality there is plenty of warning if you bother to pay attention.

Dee-Duh-Dee...

I didn't intend to diminish the impact of the drilling party. I just questioned the legal procedure.

Well, go tell any lawyer you would like to get your charges dropped, explaining that you've already confessed. His reply won't take long!

I only pictured the progression where the Forest Service starts using MP photos to level charges against some of us. Consider if you documented your 2nd ascent, and they decided you must have set the bolts?

I have an unfortunate history that puts me on edge. The Forest Service has conducted an entrapment operation against my family, my friends, and myself. Which involved giving us the wrong key to the cave for which we had a permit. Knowing we had two groups that day, one group that couldn't get the key to work, moved into the other non gated cave with our 2nd group. Rangers followed the 2nd group in and gave us all tickets for having too large a group. The ranger who masterminded the whole thing was given a harsh tongue lashing by the judge before dismissing our charges. I know he is no longer with the district, and hopefully out of the business completely.

All told, anyone drilling should be aware of the local rules. You don't want to be assaulted by the cops, rangers, or the locals.

if the photo caption talks about a rad FA, it probably isn't a big stretch to assume the guys did the drilling.

marty funkhouser wrote:...the illegal use of white chalk at Garden of the Gods...

Whoa Whoa Whoa, hold the phone!! People make it a point to climb at Garden of the Gods??

Who the fuck climbs at capital reef?

Big yawn.

instagram.com/p/t0gmfUPs4D/

Patagonia again, this time in NYC. :)
screengrab from the instagram page for Patagonia

I take back anything bad I ever said about Patagonia. I was upset with all the law breaking, photo shoot debacles but they really are a company that cares and tries to do the right thing.