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BD X4, ongoing real-world review (will update over time)

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Ray Pinpillage wrote: That isn't Bearbreeder's info, he's simply parroting what was already on the internet. Four broken cams is statistically irrelevant and the implication that since X4's stay bent a little somehow correlates to four failed cams in the UK is fairly stupid. With that said, all gear should be inspected. frayed slings and cables with broken wires should be retired. That applies to all gear including cams.
this isnt rays real post

hes simply screaming with CAPS and exclamation marks !!! for some little flaming =P

there was some discussion as to whether repeated flexing and kinking of cables can cause weakening ... and the answer backed up by REAL examples is yes ... it can

as to the X4s, it may or may not ... however unless you KNOW what to look for you might well miss it

ray is simply trying to use personal attacks to confuse people checking their cams for frayed cables

its not like he advised people to do this BEFORE this post in this thread ...LOL

hes to busy puffing out his intraweb chest a bit rather than "parroting" around safety info

as to "irrelevant" ... you just hear a story of this happening on the last page from an MP member whose cam broke in half from this ...

;)
MorganH · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 197
Jim Titt wrote: Send them back to the manufacturers for inspection?
That doesn't seem very likely.
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

Eva is pregnant. Unreported failure?

Andre H. · · Boulder · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 5


This thread in a nutshell.
Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78

Time for a NEW final update, after well over a year of use and abuse.

Ignoring the previous posts (honestly, I've stopped paying attention to the entire thread at this point) . . .

Final final thoughts:
In the long run, I think the x4 are just "meh." Given a choice between having mastercams and x4s, I think I would probably have to give the slight long run upper hand to the mastercams. The reasons for this are mostly gut feeling. I just find myself a bit happier placing a mastercam than an x4 in a place where both would work.

Over the past year or so, the x4s have proven themselves to be a bit delicate for my tastes. While the kinking at the thumb loop did not turn out to be a real problem, other things did. The heads got kinked fairly easily and frequently. When the heads got kinked even a little, the trigger pull action worsened dramatically. Take a fall on one of these in a weird placement, and it could instantly become a pain to clean, and once cleaned, required hand tweaking. All that bending back and forth might have some super long run metal fatigue issues, but I'll let an engineer who knows better give judgment here.

Kinking is just not a big issue with the mastercams I have, as they have both beefier cables (which don't tweak as easily) and a trigger system which is apparently a bit more robust (or at least that's my gut). On the other hand, the thin (and somewhat delicate) cable allows the x4s to have excellent stem flexibility. While theoretically this could reduce walking or enable weird placements, I have found the difference in walking to be negligible, but others might not.

The sizes that shine in the x4s are definitely .2 and .3 (.1 is just scary small no matter what). The larger sizes (especially the .5 and up) often a pain to place compared with their c4s brethren. When going with a single rack, I defaulted to the c4s for the .5 100% of the time, and the .4 c4 vs x4 was a coin flip. Again it's a tradeoff. The x4s give much narrower heads for weird pockets. The c4s are easier to place, easier to clean, and give more happy bomber placement feelings. The big benefit of the x4s is that they do noticeably cover a bigger range per cam compared with either mastercams, which comes at the cost of the daintiness discussed.

In the end, I am fairly happy with what I have, but would be equally happy with a rack of mastercams in the same sizes. If I were in the market, it would really come down to whatever set I could get for a better deal. With the updated aliens coming around the corner, who knows if there really is a "best" small cam out there.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

While any cam can have kinked cables, especially in a large fall

Part of the problem IMO is the longer metal sleeve of certain cams ... With a shorter sleeve the wire is more able to flex around shallower plavements that arent perfectly in the direction of the pull

If the metal sleeve of a cam like the x4 gets fixed in a horizontal edge or an awkward placement, then most of the force of the fall will focus on that attachment point

You can see the difference between the blue x4 and the green alien here



The zeros also have a minimal metal sheave

The wire on the aliens and zeros is also significantly more flexible ... Those cams are optimized for funky placements (as much as any cam can be)

Of course there is a tradeoff im durability in the lobes (aliens) or the trigger wires (zeros)

There aint no such thing as a free lunch

There however have been quite a few stories of folks tweaking their x4s quite a bit for a new cam

;)
teece303 · · Highlands Ranch, CO · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 596

Shoo,

In what way is the C4 easier to place than the X4 for you? I have the exact opposite reaction: I almost always pick the X4 over the C4 when they're both on my rack and fit the next placement.

The narrower head of the X4 means it's more likey to fit, and placing them seems pretty much identical to me.

I agree they are a bit delicate, but I still love mine. They go with me any time I'm placing gear.

Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78
teece303 wrote:Shoo, In what way is the C4 easier to place than the X4 for you? I have the exact opposite reaction: I almost always pick the X4 over the C4 when they're both on my rack and fit the next placement. The narrower head of the X4 means it's more likey to fit, and placing them seems pretty much identical to me. I agree they are a bit delicate, but I still love mine. They go with me any time I'm placing gear.
Good question. It has mostly to do with the stiffness of the stem and reliability of the trigger system. When I am trying to slot a cam into an odd placement, the stiffness of the c4 helps me push the head around whatever way I want, since the head is basically always exactly perpendicular to the stem. With the x4s, the head can get caught on small features more easily and rotate, which is at best annoying, and on a few occasions resulted in a "fuck it, moving on, and my second can deal with it" after it got stuck in a weird place. The x4s are just way more fiddly than the c4s. Obviously the much narrower head width opens up placement options, but I've rarely found that to be an issue in the .5 or above range. Plus, the tweaking issue makes the trigger action go all crappy, which makes placing annoying sometimes.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
bearbreeder wrote:The zeros also have a minimal metal sheave
That's an understatement. The zeros have no sections of rigid stem, unlike any other single stem cams in those sizes on the market.
Jfaub · · Ottawa, On · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 795
Jake Jones wrote:Took short hard fall on .3 X4. Cam was easy to place. Cam held. Did not explode. Removed relatively easy. Cam is not disfigured. Will use again. That is all.
This.

I've taken lead falls on all the sizes except the .1 (shivers) and they feel bomber when in good rock and good placements. Not much more you can ask. I had a purple x4 pull, but that was just because the placement was extremely marginal.

All in all, good cams. Bigger sizes are a bit floppy to handle, but I don't consider that a big issue. They supplement my WC heliums very well.
Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78
Jfaub wrote: This. I've taken lead falls on all the sizes except the .1 (shivers) and they feel bomber when in good rock and good placements. Not much more you can ask. I had a purple x4 pull, but that was just because the placement was extremely marginal. All in all, good cams. Bigger sizes are a bit floppy to handle, but I don't consider that a big issue. They supplement my WC heliums very well.
I agree with both of you. They are good cams. I have also taken falls on all of mine except the .1 (which a friend "tested" for me). They work just fine. They are "good" cams, in that they function more or less as they should.

It's not a question of whether they are good, it's a question of whether they are better than their main competition. I've come to the conclusion that they are not objectively better in an meaningful sense. It's down to tradeoffs.

Edit: Also worth noting that I've had a few really marginal placements with x4s do something magical and hold (in one case entirely due to the dual stem cam stop thing for the large ones). I've had 2 placements rip, but again in marginal placement. My anecdotal evidence does not constitute proof of anything at all, and I have no clue how other cams in the same position would have done. Counterfactuals are important.

Double edit: If I want to keep posting stuff, I should probably stop falling on all my gear.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
ANY cam will work "good enough" in good placements in good rock ... 20 year old TCUs, rock empires, link cams, etc ...

the reason you pay $$$$ for new shiny cams when your old cams still work is for stuff that hopefully gives you a better chance you in not so good placements, especially microcams

wild country cam book, zero

wild country cam book, zero

the zeros and aliens (and totems basic/standard) are proven performers in funky placements

they can pull like any other cam in weird placements ... but your odds are probably a bit better

;)
evan h · · Longmont, CO · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 360

For the record, I fell on a 0.1 x4 when a marginal nut above it ripped. It held. I'm sold. That's about as technical as my cam reviews get.

Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506

fell on a #.2 in a horizontal crack with the stem over the edge, no issues.
led a C2 last weekend, mostly roofs and 45 degree overhangs, used all my #.3 to #.75, including a few offsets, clipping into the thumb-loops, no problems!

Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

We need a 'block' button!

Scottmx426 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 0

...and a 'wanker' button!

Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860
Scottmx426 wrote:...and a 'wanker' button!
NICE!
Jon Frisby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 270

I don't know if they've fixed the issue, but the X4 .3 and .4 that I just bought (made in '14) do not have the glue-retraction issues. I haven't climbed on them yet so I don't know how much is usable in reality, but it seemed like the range was a bit above average for the size (but I haven't climbed on aliens).

Will Cohen · · Denver, Co · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 80
Jon Frisby wrote:I don't know if they've fixed the issue, but the X4 .3 and .4 that I just bought (made in '14) do not have the glue-retraction issues. I haven't climbed on them yet so I don't know how much is usable in reality, but it seemed like the range was a bit above average for the size (but I haven't climbed on aliens).
.3 doesn't have the kevlar trigger wires, so it was never an issue for this piece. .4 was the worst in my opinion. Every one that I have seen recently still suffers from the problem. If you can post pics that would be helpful
Jon Frisby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 270
WillamR wrote: .3 doesn't have the kevlar trigger wires, so it was never an issue for this piece. .4 was the worst in my opinion. Every one that I have seen recently still suffers from the problem. If you can post pics that would be helpful
Oh duh that makes sense on the blue. I'll post one in my profile in a few minutes of the grey
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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