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[Aug 25, 2014] Jemez Cave (a.k.a. Crystal Cave) is closed to all public access, including climbing

Shirtless Mike · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 5,839

Thanks Jason & Bryan for looking into this. Eily and Djkyote for continuing to pressure the forest service about it. William for the excellent post about the history and archeological significance of the area.

It is too bad that the forest service and Jemez Pueblo aren't open to building a boardwalk above the ground, or bringing in fill dirt to protect any un-excavated artifacts.

Mike Tritt, so no-one thinks I'm trying to hide behind my screen name.

Eily from ABQ · · Albuquerque, New Mexico · Joined May 2010 · Points: 95

Sorry this is long, but if you like details, here you go:
I met with Jeff Harris and Jeremy Marshall today at the Jemez Ranger District Office. They were both very nice, but didn't have the best news. I asked them what the status of the archeological survey was, if there was a report, and if I could see it. They said that the archeological survey was completed in about a month's time. According to these rangers, deposits and pollen were discovered in the dirt that supposedly date back 12,000 years. Jeremy said that they plan to rebury the "baby" or "princess" in six weeks. Jeff said that actually, many things had to be done before the reburial, and that it probably wouldn't happen in six weeks. The state archeologists, the Bandolier archeologists(Vanishing Treasures?), SHIPO(State Historic Preservation Officer) and the FS all have to meet to discuss how the reburial will be done. I asked if there was a public record of the archeological reports or if there will be a meeting to reveal the findings and they said they had not received one, and that they might not...so, how we are supposed to know if any of this is true, I'm not sure.
I went on to ask what the deal was with the ever increasing temporary closures, since I could not find any info abut this on the internet. I asked how many temporary closures the FS could instigate and Jeff said as many as they want. I asked if there is a document that can support this claim and he said it was all part of their CFR, or codified federal register, but wasn't sure if there is an actual document stating their legal right to initiate infinite temporary closures.
I told them that I understood the land CC is on to be FS land and that it is deemed a recreational user area. They said that CC is indeed on FS land and is a National Recreation Area, or NRA, for multiple users. However, federal acts give tribes oversight on "forest sacred lands." He said that the Jemez tribe had pretty much claimed all of the district. I asked, as an example, if the Jemez Tribe could claim the Soda Dam. Jeff said, that they could try, but the FS wouldn't let them. So, I reiterated that the decision to allow such tribes to claim sacred lands such as the soda dam is up to the FS, and he said yes. Jeff went on to say that he had discussed creating a management plan with Brian Pletta for CC once the archeological report was back, thinking it wasn't going to contain so much historical and tribal significance. However, after hearing what was discovered, he said he didn't think there would be any management plan, but most likely a permanent closure.
I mentioned the idea someone else has given in this forum, using the example of Cova Gran in Santa Linya. I asked if it would be possible to consider covering these artifacts with plywood platforms, as other historically significant areas have done to allow climbing to continue. Jeff said that that idea probably wouldn't fly because the cave itself contains soot. I said, "not from the 70s?" According to Jeff, no, the soot has been dated back 12,000 years.
I asked why now? If this place has always been so important to the tribe, why was it full of diapers and garbage when climbers came upon it? Jeff just reiterated that the tribe has always wanted it closed. So, I pressed a little more and asked what finally led to the CC closure. Apparently, when Joshua Madalena became governor in 2012, it was one of his top priorities to close the cave and rebury the child. He was not governor in 2013, but is again governor now and until the end of 2014. I asked who would be able to visit the cave once it was permanently closed and he said no one but the tribe.
I mentioned that one of the reasons I was meeting with him had to do with allegations of new bolts and draws in the cave. When I first got to the office, I talked with only Jeremy about it, and he said he could probably take me up to the cave to get a pic of the proof, which made me very excited. However, Jeff shut that down saying only tribal members or FS employees could go up there. I asked how many draws and bolts there were. Jeff said about 20-30. I was confused and asked him how people could sneak up there and install that much gear. He told me that they had never actually removed all of the gear up there, they removed what they could reach and that there are about 20-30 remaining bolts and permadraws. It's been 2.5 years and the gear is still up there. So, I asked how they knew that new gear was up there. Jeff said there are about 3-4 new bolts and draws going right up the middle of the cave. I asked again if I could just go up with them and get a picture of this, and at least say goodbye to this place, but got a firm no.
Before leaving, I gave them my email and phone number and asked them to please let me know if the archeological report ever becomes available, explaining that it might really help a lot of the people in the climbing community to at least understand how a favorite climbing area could be forever closed.
Oh, and by the way,

I thought we were bulldozing...

Michael Wheat · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 65
Eily from ABQ wrote: Oh, and by the way, I thought we were bulldozing...
Love it! The necessity of modern convenience trumps ancient cultural and archeological significance. Everything about non-native americans is bad accept, light bulbs, automobiles, computers, planes, phones, the internet, public infrastructure, casino patrons, etc, etc.....

So whats next? They keep all the climbers out, and the place goes back to the way it used to be (trash, beer bottles, diapers, etc)? Or they spend more money on resources patrolling and fencing off the place? Funny how the FS / Pueblo is willing to work really hard at maintaining something they obviously didn't care about maintaining in the first place.

The climbing community cleaned it up. It would be in the climbing communities interest to keep it clean (free of charge more than likely). The only reason why its back on the radar is because of the climbing community.
Chris Hill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2007 · Points: 0
Shirtless Mike wrote:  Is this for genuine safety concerns or to get extra revenue to hire more lawyers for land grabs? 

Yup, those godammed land-grabbing injuns.  MNMGA!

Chris Hill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2007 · Points: 0
Jack Quarless wrote:

Your virtue signaling is so cute. You win the clueless liberal award for the day. Congrats.

Relax, snowflake.

Mateo San Pedro · · OR · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 266
Jack Quarless wrote:

Your virtue signaling is so cute. You win the clueless liberal award for the day. Congrats.

I think you both should knock it off.

SHERATY DADY · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2019 · Points: 0
Jason Halladay wrote: Re: Pictures, if I get out there I'll take some photos. It would be great to get that sorted out, Mr. Chuffs. Also, if I'm contacted about any further discussions/meetings, I'd love for others to be involved to get a different perspective on the matter. Make no mistake, I'm not going out of my way to be THE spokesperson for all Discordclimbers on this matter. IOmegle simply enjoy being involved and have a strong passion for climbing in my home state. I'll contact you via personal message Xenderif anything comes to fruition. Are you in NM? Your history with this issue and perspective on the situation sounds valuable. Also, Sir Chuffs, I don't feel like I'm being divisive here and I'm not sure how my comments are hurting the climbing community. Can you be more specific? The fact is the cave is still closed and I feel we, as climbers, need to respect that no matter our personal opinions on the matter. I was given information (not yet verified by me) that it appears climbing activities have been taking place in the cave still. If true, those kinds of actions will hurt the climbing community much more than anything I can say here. I have a hard time believing this is true and I hope we can do our best to dispel the misinformation.

Yes pictures. As an expert on the issue and someone who cares, without picture this is ridiculous and an insult to the climbing community. I seriously doubt that climbers left draws on an area fenced of by the Federal Government, which is right across the street from the agency supposed to patrol it. Yes the chains were taken down before the closure, but someone put project draws on Leprosy the day before the closure.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
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