A cautionary Tale of Two Metals - and a bolt that pull out after just 15 years
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I'm afraid this is getting a bit esoteric. Seeing that our failed bolts can easily obliterate some innocent citizen like Legion, we do tend to get a bit obsessive. |
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Thanks again Rusty for your contribution to this thread. I'll look into glue-ins more (never thought it necessary in the type of rock I bolt). This whole issue does make trad look safer/more attractive... and the one saving grace to many of my old routes with those questionable bolts is they are mixed, so at least a few pieces of gear would be certain (it seems the trend these days is to get away from that - for the convenience of only having to take a rack of draws). |
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Steve Levin wrote:Gregger Man, Matt R. and others are working out techniques for bolt removal here in Boulder that make the "smash-and-break" methodology obsolete while increasing likelihood of re-use of original holes and minimizing rock scaring from hammer blows. Not bolt chopping, but bolt removal. Should be able to find more info on MP. Worth investigating...Steve, Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe with Gregger Man's 'spin it out' technique you have to redrill the hole to a larger diameter (Gregger Man has been going from 3/8" to 1/2"). Nothing wrong with that, we do it all the time going from 1/4" to 3/8", I am just adding a bit of information. |
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Possible guess: |
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The spinning technique for stud bolts probably does modify the hole size. I don't know if it's a requirement to enlarge the hole, but we have been upgrading everything from 3/8" to 1/2" anyway. If I were going to re-use a 3/8" hole I would at least drill it deeper and switch to a longer bolt (and definitely make the replacement a 5-piece and not a wedge.) |
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Hi Limpingcrab, yes it is a shorter bolt (2.25"), and only 1.5" was buried in the rock. (This is one of the reasons I am wanting to replace them, and one of the reassuring aspects since I didn't use short bolts very often, so think that batch may be confined to that small crag.) |
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Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: Steve, Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe with Gregger Man's 'spin it out' technique you have to redrill the hole to a larger diameter (Gregger Man has been going from 3/8" to 1/2"). Nothing wrong with that, we do it all the time going from 1/4" to 3/8", I am just adding a bit of information.Yes, a larger diameter hole is drilled. In Eldorado, where I have most of my experience replacing bolts, all new bolts are now 1/2" SS. In fact, the Action Committee for Eldorado (ACE) and ECSP require this spec. FYI, ACE will supplies the bolts, hardware, drills, bits, etc. A permit from ECSP is required. |
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HI Gregger Man, thanks for the input - its fascinating to imagine the kind of experience you must have with failed and weathered bolts! The removed bolt certainly has a rusted/frozen collar now, but since it did tighten down 15 years ago, I thought maybe the outer surface had corroded enough to make it slid out, but suppose a "healthy" bolt should have a collar that can move and tighten more years later if need be. |
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Billcoe wrote:I don't disagree on mixing metals, but I've learned it's usually not a big deal like I once thought it was. If you have an aluminum hanger and any other kind of a bolt, thats a huge issue. But look at these: This bolt was stainless, and an unplated steel homeade hanger was put on it in teh wettest part of the Columbia River gorge (wet indeed) where it stayed for 20 years, moss covered towards the end. Still perfectly strong. Close up of Tim Olsen, local guidebook author and good dude to hang with - he remembered the location. It was invisible but he dug and found it. Look at the plants. Wet eh? See? The stainless wedge anchors look perfect still. The hanger, being homemade, probably always looked like crap, but it's still plenty strong. Here's one I found is a huge ticking time bomb we all need to avoid. The steel 5 piece Powers anchors will corrode right where the threads meet the body of the bolt. You can't do a visual inspection as it is below grade. Even within a year I've gone back to replace with stainless and the 5 pieces were looking real real bad. Corroded badly. That's all I have. Take care all and don't blindly trust old bolts is a good motto to have:-)You tested this bolt or you just think it was OK? |
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I have not attempted to remove any old SS wedge bolts. Stainless is so malleable that pulling hard on a stud can make the threads quickly become useless when everything starts stretching. |
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If you look closely at the photo you'll notice a clean spot right where the collar meets the wedge. |
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Rocknice2, yes that may be part of it (as it obviously moved a little in the hammering) - yet the clean unrusted part is only about 1/16th of an inch wide (and less on the back side), and the sleeve is still firmly stuck part way up the flaring collar, so I'm not sure if this would have loosened the placement enough on its own. |
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To me, that bolt looks fine and like it should still hold. Since it came out at 15 years, I wouldn't be surprised to learn it would have come out at 15 minutes. It probably would have held in shear, so you would never have known it was bad. |
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Hi Nicelegs, I agree with your points. All I remember is the bolt tightened down 15 years ago. Back then I also simply closed my eyes and blew the dust out. Now I use a small plastic tube inserted into the hole with a piece of flexible tubing attached to blow into - works like a charm. |
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Gregger Man wrote:I have not attempted to remove any old SS wedge bolts. Stainless is so malleable that pulling hard on a stud can make the threads quickly become useless when everything starts stretching. I'm amazed at how many plated bolts in Eldo sport stainless hangers. Lots of silicone/plumber's putty seal jobs, too. Not good.Hey Gregger, You bring up a really good point about the putty seal jobs. "Sealing" in bolts to keep water out was in vogue for a while in CA too. Unfortunately what it actually accomplished was holding water in. The result is a bolt that look good on the outside but is badly rotten inside (FYI, I am basing my statements off of some info that Greg Barnes posted somewhere...). Anyway, I have been thinking about replacing some bolts in the SPlatte because of this concern, but I don't want to waste my time if the bolts are probably okay. What has been your experience here in CO regarding the state of sealed bolts? Just FYI, the bolts in question are plated 3/8" wedges with SMC hangers (the good 2nd gen ones, not the wafer thin guys), so I am guessing they are circa late 90's plus or minus a few years. Cheers. |
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applewood: When you hammer in a brand new bolt the collar will slide along the stud smoothly. Thus when you try to remove it before torquing down the nut, it still has a good wedging action. When the collar and stud are rusted it may prevent the wedge from engaging the collar. |
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J. Albers wrote: Hey Gregger, You bring up a really good point about the putty seal jobs. "Sealing" in bolts to keep water out was in vogue for a while in CA too. Unfortunately what it actually accomplished was holding water in. The result is a bolt that look good on the outside but is badly rotten inside (FYI, I am basing my statements off of some info that Greg Barnes posted somewhere...). Anyway, I have been thinking about replacing some bolts in the SPlatte because of this concern, but I don't want to waste my time if the bolts are probably okay. What has been your experience here in CO regarding the state of sealed bolts? Just FYI, the bolts in question are plated 3/8" wedges with SMC hangers (the good 2nd gen ones, not the wafer thin guys), so I am guessing they are circa late 90's plus or minus a few years. Cheers.I wouldn't want to tell you not to do it but between Kevin Stricker and the Fixed Pin crew, most of the suspect stuff has been dealt with. Even a lot of non suspect stuff has gotten done for the sake of consistency. This isn't to say there aren't plenty of obscure routes with bad bolts. It just isn't the issue that it was 10 years ago. Entirely thanks to about 3 or 4 people. Pretty amazing IMO. |
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nicelegs wrote: I wouldn't want to tell you not to do it but between Kevin Stricker and the Fixed Pin crew, most of the suspect stuff has been dealt with. Even a lot of non suspect stuff has gotten done for the sake of consistency. This isn't to say there aren't plenty of obscure routes with bad bolts. It just isn't the issue that it was 10 years ago. Entirely thanks to about 3 or 4 people. Pretty amazing IMO.Agreed that Kevin and Fixed Pin have admirably done a lot of work (also need to give a shout to the ASCA). However there are still a ton of routes out there in the SPlatte with either Leepers and quarters or simply badly, badly rusted early generation 3/8" plated bolts. I know because I have been climbing on them the last two seasons in the areas that I frequent. Obviously replacing the quarters are the priority, but from the pics that I have seen, when pulled those early gen 3/8" bolts can be really rotten on the inside. Considering that I frequent these routes (and rarely see anyone else), I figure that I should be doing my part (its just time and effort for me because I already have all the required gear for doing replacements). Cheers. |
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Rocknice2, on this old bolt I was able to get the sleeve loose, and so it can slide around (a little less than 1/4 play) - but it was pretty snug near the end of its range (only 1/16th of an inch clean metal) when it came out which makes me think it either wasn't in very firmly at first (as Nicelegs suggests due to poor hole prep) or it was in fine but pulled due to some corrosion at contact points. |
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One think I feel that is worth mentioning is that there is a huge range of quality when it comes to wedge bolts. There are many, many manufacturers, some like Hilti are considered to be very good quality, others, especially the ones you get at the big box hardware stores for cheap are not. |