Anyone fall on an ice screw on lead?
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I was watching a friend (Bernie)lead Spiral Staircase in Vail. He lead 3/4 of the way up with no pro. He placed one screw and then near the very top some ice fractured, both tools popped and here came Bernie..screaming loudly along the way. The one screw he placed held (no screamer) and Bernie was safe about 2 foot from the deck. Witnessing this was a HUGE confidence boost for me. I was always wary of ice pro and of falling on it....after that incident leading ice felt safer to me. Thanks Bernie! |
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TIL peeps fall on ice more than I had thought |
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I've done a medium amount of ice over the years. It's great to see that everyone agrees to what becomes immediately obvious on your first ice climbthere's too much going on to treat the system the same, from a safety-point-of-view, as a rock climbing sport or otherwise well-protected route. Don't fall leading on ice is pretty intuitive. I haven't taken a serious fall on ice. I've felt the fear for sure. Once in the Canadian Rockies on a short WI IV or so, I whacked my pick in a little too close to the other, and on very brittle ice, I saw a dinner-plate crack travel underneath the other pick, both picks in at that point. I was still fine, but taking out one of the two picks was indeed adrenaline-wrought. Okay, so my one fall was when I went with my son when he was 10 to do Dana Couloir. Most readers of this page can solo it. I'm not much of a soloist, but I was very casual just because it's so easy. Nevertheless, I'd put in a screw every 50' or so, and at one place I slipped about 10' higher. My son was astounded, and super excited that he saved his dad, although actually, I probably would have slid 50' to soft snow and been fine. But the screw did hold. |
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I fell on Stairway to Heaven, too. See the forum post below from 2010: |
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I've never fallen leading ice, but came pretty close. I was climbing the classic WI4 Moonlight in the Canadian Rockies. In hindsight, I shouldn't have gone up in the first place (ice was rotten and melting) and my crampons were so blunt from numerous days of climbing ice in a row. So I guess my point here is that alot of the times bad judgement can lead to close calls. |
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haha!! I took a 100 footer at Lee Vining in 1985~ that's almost 3 seconds airtime. |
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Last winter I took my first lead fall climbing ice after 25 years. |
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It seems like a lot of these falls are due to tool placement too close to the other tool or at the same level. If you climb with basic "triangle" technique, this should never happen. What's going on? |
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My little incident occured at Lincoln Falls, about 6 years ago. |
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Only once when I first started leading. I was about 3' above my first screw (I think it was a 16cm) and next thing I know I'm hanging on the rope thinking that was the softest catch ever. Screamer ripped fully, so it was just a slow stop and not a jerk. |
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Hi, |
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I was climbing w Bob Horton a few weeks ago and asked him to comment on that 100' fall MH took in 1985. His comment: Bob remembers that day vividly, and he still has the bent Chouinard ice screw. It is one of the long ones (10 or 12 inches). I [Bob] had untied from the anchor to avoid falling ice from the rotten section Mar was leading, and I jumped off the stance to pull in rope (~20 ft) and avoid Mar landing on top of me. So there you have it, another mountain myth confirmed. |
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Several climbers who fell have noted they fell upside down with their back to the wall. |
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There has been AT LEAST one other thread on this issue, with several other war stories. I took a twenty footer at the Ice Park and the screw held fine. As long as you have a good placement in good ice, screws are generally pretty solid. If you have a tied off screw or crappy ice, all bets are off. |
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Oh man, never fallen, been seriously pumped, and plenty scared. I personally don't really wish to ever test a screw, though modern screws, in good ice, are pretty bombproof, as seen here. I wonder though, for every story we have here, is the opposite, where a screw pulled with dire consequences? Glad all here are good and no one was seriously injured. |
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Years ago I fell about 20' on one of those old Russian screws. It held but was bent! I climbed back up and was able to pick it up from where it had enlarged the screw hole. I know, I deserved it for climbing with such crap. |
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The other concern about falling, other than the screw holding, and probably just as important, is what you're going to hit or get snagged on when you fall. Falling with crampons and a couple of sharp tools is to be avoided. When I fell, I fortunately fell out backwards (tool popped when trying to place a screw) and I turned sideways in midair, which was good. I ended up smacking my hip on a less steep section below me which, had I landed feet first on, would have probably messed up my ankles good. |
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It seems like one only need read but 2-3 sentences into the stories to know what and why the accident happened (& how it could/should have been avoided). Common themes, underestimated and sometimes outright dismissed as a significant contributing factor by some authors are: "dull ice tools/crampons"; "geez, I took a 4,690' whipper - still don't know why but just walked away with a sprained ankle.....guess I'm lucky"; "stuck both tools in a bulge and surprise, surprise, they BOTH popped"; (similarly: "stuck both tools side by side and the ice had the gall to dinner plate"); "placed a screw in a bulge of ice and was shocked when it and the bulge popped off and broke me nose....and my girlfriend's"; "the screw broke" [naw.....they bend first...usually and because of bad placement/abuse]; "checked out the screamer I fell on and it only had 49 of the 51 stitches pulled out, so I said 'screw it' and kept on climbing", "went climbing with a friend who has never been ice climbing.....but is a good rock climber.....and he fell, jerking me upwards so hard that I hit the bottom of his crampons (and they were in his pack....he wasn't even wearing them!!!"; on and on and on. |
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Warbonnet wrote:slushy or running water behind the formation, in which case, the angle is probably best set ABOVE the perpendicular line.Hadn't heard about this application with water running behind the flow Warbonnet. Could you explain more in detail or cite a reference please? |
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Tom-onator wrote: Hadn't heard about this application with water running behind the flow Warbonnet. Could you explain more in detail or cite a reference please?Tom-anator, thanks for the question. This issue is close to me because it resulted in the death of a friend .but Ill get to that. Here are a few references & citations you asked for; lets see what the uber-experts have to say about running water behind ice, what it means, how or if it can be protected, but better yet, how to avoid it (if possible). Then Ill tell you what happened to my friend. I know some members of this forum know the story. The last explanation of how & why ice melts is perhaps the most interesting .stay with it. As a preface, the notion of water running beneath ice involves a number of factors insofar as dealing with it: how thick, what type & condition is the ice and ..rather impossible to determine on the spot, how fast (rate), drop angle, thickness (how deep), width (across the ice beneath you), time (does it run all night or freeze, slow down, speed up, etc). How thick is the ice you intend to place a screw into? Will it touch the rock as it is screwed in and if so, are you aware of the consequences? Do you have hollow, hydroform ice tools, trigger activated .one filled with gin, the other with tonic .you have the cold water already you might need a G&T or three while youre puzzling your way out of this situation. The situation has something to do with the temperature of the water and that in turn affects how fast it is melting the ice, something many dont think about. I usually dont think about it....I just avoid it (unless it's a solid-sided, hollow column, then I don't mind the sound of cascading water), usually at all costs, but Im automagically listening for the tell-tale thunk of the ice tool then I know I might be in the thin of it. The last of our experts articles below addresses the importance of water temperature beneath ice, how that affects ice quality which in turn of course should affect your choice of how to protect it ..or not. Chris Harmston; Black Diamond Myths, Cautions & Techniques of Ice Screw Placement needlesports.com/catalogue/… .what is the ice quality? Is it detached, hollow, slushy, and/or rotten? If so, and this is the only option for protection, it may well be better to rely on the potential hooking/lever resistance ability of the screw rather than the holding power of the threads. (This is known as strength versus placement angle). Does the ice have running water under or on it? If so, you may have to worry about the screw melting out due to the water. What we observed is that placing the screw in the direction of loading is significantly stronger. In fact, at 15 degrees from perpendicular the screws are over two times stronger when placed in the direction of load than when placed against the direction of load. A final word of caution relative to equalizing two screws. Ice generally fails horizontally. Placing two screws horizontally also increases the force on the screws due to the triangle force multiplier (American Triangle). Place the screws vertically with one screw above the other. This will give the best possible chance for both screws to hold. WARBONNET: I mentioned in an earlier comment that placing screws in vertical alignment if one must tie one off, then back it up, if possible, by placing another screw higher (say 14 to 16; others will have other recommended distances & techniques such as threads. These are my choice, but not V threads, rather A threads). One tied off screw backing up another tied off screw is, well, never mind. As Chris emphasizes, do not back up ice screws with horizontal placement .more on this in a bit. Chris mentioning the screw melting out due to the water may draw a huh, whattya mean melt out ..Im freezin. In fact, even super cold water contains heat (simplified, called specific heat; everything has such a factor), more so than one might think; its this that eats away at ice far, far beyond (and beneath) the boundary of what one might think is solid ice. And youre right on top of it (thinking,"now WHERE are my hollow hydroforms when I really need them?") Note to those who may not know: A screw placed with the hanger lower than the screw tip is called a positive angle placement; a screw placed with the hanger higher than the tip is a negative placement. Negative versus positive placement of screw discussions-cum-random-tool-swinging-arguments (which is safer?, for example) is akin to the sum total of all arguments in the past, current and future of the universe. Put that all together and Chris has already answered your question: if sketchy ice because, in the hypothetical we are talking about, i.e, water running behind ice, no need to place a screw at a positive angle because when weighted, it will pull out like a greased pig and hit your 5th G&T. Placing it at a negative angle (hanger up) MIGHT at least provide a placebo hallucination that youre protected due to the lever resistance of the upward-angled screw. So, lever resistance is different than pull out resistance the latter of which relies more on the thread design, good ice and other factors. Ice and Mixed Climbing: Modern Technique; 2003 Will Gadd Chapter: Ice Formation: Understanding the Medium [However], if the ice is thin and the temperature well above freezing, melt water will get behind the ice, breaking the ice/rock bond and making smears and other features very unstable. If the ice is good and thick and water is running behind it, it still may be safe to climb short sections, but anytime that water is running behind ice and you can see that the ice is not attached to the rock at any point, its probably time to go rock climbing. Winter Climbing Neil Gresham, Ian Parnell Rockfax Publishing, 2009 Chapter: Ice, Style & Ethics Pay particular attention where you can see water running behind [the ice] as there is a very real danger of a full-scale collapse. Look out for the missing chunks or for major cracks. It may not give you another warning before it goes [even large areas of seemingly sound ice may suddenly and without warning result in catastrophic collapse]. Points on Ice: Author unknown (Net source) but duly credited for great analysis Information on how ice-climbs form, deform, and fail iceclimb.com/science.html Ice-climb Destruction In a sense, all of the deformation processes of ice are destructive. For example, many pillar and curtain climbs succumb to their own creep by eventually fracturing near their top where tension overcomes inter-molecular bonding. However, the most destructive entity at work on ice-climbs is water itself. Liquid water has an enormously high heat capacity. That is, liquid water can absorb, or emit, a lot of energy without much change in its temperature. Many high-flow waterfalls wont freeze simply because not enough energy can be carried away by the surrounding cold air and ground. Liquid water can also melt a lot of ice. Once water starts flowing over, under, or through ice, it deteriorates and weakens quickly. The melting of ice will also destroy an ice-climb, and ice melts in a curious way; It doesnt solely melt from the surface inward, but melts throughout at all of the crystal boundaries. Melting initiates the percolation of liquid water that in turn creates a vacuum and pulls in air. A white color reveals the presence of air, and is indicative of poor cohesion of ice crystals, low density, and weak ice. Eventually a melting ice-fall will reach a consistency of spring snow if it doesnt collapse first. Also, the percolating water often winds up at the underlying rock-ice interface where it may accumulate into significant flow to melt even more ice. Melting will therefore be greatest at the areas where the ice adheres, or once adhered, to the underlying substrate, and will be hidden from view. If running water is audible, the ice will likely be poorly affixed to the underlying rock, or dirt. Be wary of any gurgling sounds. WARBONNET: Where I live, we call such holes, collapsed or not (often known because they show up as part of climb itself; count on it) sucker holes. They arent named for suckers (dummies) nor do they suck you into them, rather, they suck the life out of you. They are thin-rimmed and can be undercut for amazing distances but not for the same reasons snow fields are thin near rocks thats from thermal warming of the rock. In a sense however, the rim of sucker holes are the result of thermal activity, just a different kind. They can be found in vertical or flat-ish ice. I think the worse place they show up is in about 40-60 degree ice and are super dangerous because people arent paying attention. Im always listening for water but that doesnt mean Im going to stop; Im listening to what its trying to tell me and that means skirt that thing, whether I can see it or not; thats where Im going. (Remember your belayer; don't end up where you unwittingly force your belayer to cross the danger zone. Just as in protecting a traverse, use directionals if necessary to keep your good buddy(s) safe). As Gadd says, short sections may be OK but dont hang around. Ive looked into them just like a crevasse is so seductive but Ive done so only to see what they look like. Somewhat harmless looking (?) but its not unusual to be laying on 16 (or less) of ice, undercut 30-40 feet, swift water, touchable rock only an arms length away. You dont place a screw and slither back you just slither. It was a sucker hole that my friend and fellow guide fell into when a two person rope team ignored our warnings; the leader skirted the top-most edge (which was invisible but the gurgling water clearly audible from where we were, about 70 feet above them; that's a long ways to hear flowing water beneath snow). The visible hole itself was only 25' by 18' +/-. Mr. Cool was about 40 feet on the high side of the hole on about a 50 degree slope when he pulled out a 22 cm, almost screwed it to the hanger before the upper lip broke away but the leader jumped to the side of the collapse. The belayer was below the hole, the leader now slipping towards it. My friend and I were soloing so no gear to worry about; he took off after him, miraculously caught him & tried to swing him away from the hole by catching the leaders rope. Unfortunately, my friend was whiplashed into the hole, leaders rope in hand; the lead climber was grabbed by a couple of others who happened to be at the right spot at the right time. Maybe 20 people instantly showed up (hugely popular & over crowded climb notoriously so) but we needed 10,000 people and there werent 10,000 to help but we worked like we were 10,000. He was sucked under the ice about 35 feet and between the rock, only a silly 3 feet separation but freezing water and ice too thick to hack through to get him in time many tried and despite his heroic efforts to hold on to the rope (many pulled but impossible to pull hard enough nor for him to hang on) he was wedged in all we could do while trying everything possible no one ever gave up we were shouting and he was shouting -- was listen to him drown and freeze to death at seemingly the same moment. It was all over in less than 20 minutes. So, Im rather careful when around water running beneath ice. Im not paranoid about it, but the few times Ive been caught (sometimes down climbing at night off a route, the descent of which Im not totally familiar with), I dont use screws near the thin stuff. I use my Candella and carefully build an Anderson thread (nothing against Abalokovs; I just dont like the sideways angle Chris talks about above I think it would put too much pull on too much ice.) Just my opinion but I think Andersons are better and for that matter, if I were caught high on thin ice with flowing water beneath, Id probably use an Anderson over a screw anyway and back off and/or sideways to safety....and my doubled-up, trigger-activated hydroform tools - with straws. What would you do am interested. |