Installation of "hammer-in" glue-in bolts, have you done it?
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I'm looking for discussion with others who have placed glue-in bolts, especially of the "hammer-in" type, such as the Wavebolt and twisted-leg bolts. I have placed about 400 glue-in bolts; all have been of the single-stem type pictured below. |
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I don't get any more "ejaculation" when I hammer than when I don't. |
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Normally you would have noticed if there is a hole or pocket in the rock when you´re drilling and made a note to add more glue. You can feel the injected resin pushing the gun back out of the hole anyway if you have a delicate touch. |
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If you fill the hole almost to the outer edge the glue will find the spots it should be in. It will go there before it comes out. |
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A hammer in glue-in... as if...lol. |
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John, |
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Ah... overhangs I guess would be one. |
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Morgan, the idea is that you can use them on overhangs, roofs, etc without worrying about the bolt sliding out. |
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Jim Titt wrote:Normally you would have noticed if there is a hole or pocket in the rock when you´re drilling and made a note to add more glue. You can feel the injected resin pushing the gun back out of the hole anyway if you have a delicate touch.I used to think I could feel voids while drilling too, but after hundreds of holes, I've concluded I can't, at least not in Cayman limestone. Sometimes the void is near the surface, so you don't get any hydraulic push-back in the gun. I think it depends on the rock. I'm pretty sure Thailand is the same way. And as you say, sometimes I abandon a hole and drill a new one. Jim Titt wrote:The excess resin I remove (and produce the fillet) using my finger and clean this either on the back of the work glove I wear on my left hand or my trousers depending.I've been using RE-500 which really sticks to fingers (kinda like a booger) unless you lick you finger first, which is even more unappealing ;-) We found that a flat wooden stick, like a thin tongue-depressor, works well since the glue doesn't stick to it. |
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Great info Sam, thanks. A few comments... Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:If you fill the hole almost to the outer edge the glue will find the spots it should be in. It will go there before it comes out.Yes. I'm sure you've run into the void issue in Thailand, right? Sometimes I can put in a little more glue (1/4 pull) and get a nice mushroom, sometimes not and I have to drill another hole. Either way, I need to get the bolt out of the hole, and I was worried that might be a problem. Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:I often angle the bit up and run it for a second just after drilling to depth. I let the tip hit about 1/3 of the way into the hole. This makes a notch in the top of the shaft. It is no longer a perfect tube. Now the glue not only adheres to the wall, but is also actually wider on the inside than on the outside making it mechanical.Wow, interesting idea, especially for soft rock. Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:If you carry a bag of dirt up with you, and throw that dirt at the glue after you have placed the bolt, it hides the glue very well. I've found that RE-500, at least, loses it's color after about a year. It ages to a nice reddish-tan, which blends very well with the rock. I spoke to one of the Hilti tech guys who said that was intended: bright pink so you can see it easily when using it, then ages to a nondescript tan. |
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Morgan Patterson wrote:But as someone who has also placed glueins I'm left scratching my head about the advantage of a hammer in glue-in vs just drilling the hole an 1/8 or 1/16th bigger and just sliding it in without hammering it? I'm also thinking as your bit wears you going to have a smaller hole and more hammering and a significantly more difficult bolt to actually remove if someone smashes it or it needs to be replaced.As you say later, the hammer-in is so it stays put in an overhanging placement. And the Wave-bolt is intended to allow people to bolt ground-up as well, although the mere thought of a zipper scares the shit outta me. Drilling a larger hole has certainly occurred to me, but as I said, I've seen some ugly placements and was wondering why. |
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John Wilder wrote:ClimbTech makes the tool and it is specifically for the Wave bolt. It's well worth the $40.Greg says it doesn't fit other bolts, so I probably can't use it. The Mfg of my bolts says I only need to tap in the last 1/2", so I probably don't need one,I hope! John Wilder wrote: Terrycloth for smoothing- its super easy to do. Takes just a few seconds.Hmmm... the glue I'm using sticks like taffy to just about everything. That's why I use a stick to do the smoothing. We also found that using a single rag, terrycloth or otherwise, gets pretty messy; eventually everything it touches gets glue on it. We pre-cut 3" x 3" squares of old sheet (could be anything). Use one square per bolt (or so) and place the used square in a plastic bag for later disposal. Keeps everything clean, especially me! John Wilder wrote: I like the pound in nature of the Wave- it means I dont have to mess with it, twisting, holding or duct taping it into the wall. I can let go of it as I start seating it to wipe up any glue coming out of the hole and it wont slide out of the hole- meaning I can clean up as I go...I totally agree. I've had to deal with bolts slowly sliding out of their hole, usually after I've jugged up to the next placement :-( I'm looking forward to bolts that stay put. |
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Thnx guys! And I can even say I learnt something today! |
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Greg Barnes wrote:I've only placed a couple in a test rock (granite), but I had to hammer nice and hard and certainly couldn't twist it. I had to funk it to remove it (testing that one without glue of course!), not nearly as hard as funking a piton, but it did take a good amount of force. John is replacing on soft Calico Hills sandstone at Red Rocks, so the holes will be bigger and it'll be easier to move the bolts.Hi Greg! You're the fourth person, three others off-line, who said they had to hammer hard. It seems there's variation due to rock, drill size, maybe mfg-tolerances, more? The ugly bolts I've seen were in limestone and granite. With the input I've gotten so far, it's not clear to me what the cause is, or causes are. One thing I discussed with my bolt mfg, is that hole-size is critical. So I had him put in some 14mm drills, which are very hard to get here in the US. |
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I love the Wave Bolt after installing about 100 this summer. I have heard they hold ~1000lbs. without any glue, but I have not bolted on lead because Hilti recommends against weighting the glue while it cures. |
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Brendan N. (grayhghost) wrote: For best glue application I like to put 1/3 in the back of the hole, 1/3 in the middle and 1/3 near the edge of the hole. This makes sure that a void doesn't swallow all of the glue, as well as giving a good seal around the edge. To clean up the surface glue we use pre-cut 5"x5" scraps of fabric and toss them when they become saturated with glue. You can clean the surface glue in-between hammer blows if it is splooging.Hi Brendan, Do you mean you put in 3 individual beads of glue in the hole? Won't this cause air-bubbles which are often hard to get out? I think most people put all the glue in the back of the hole and let the bolt squeeze the glue along the shaft and out the top of the hole. This allows the air to escape. You've obviously had voids. Is it limestone? You describe the glue as sometimes "splooging", which is obviously a highly technical term I"m unfamiliar with ;-) Can you describe it? Which Hilti glue are you using? |
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We have used Hilti 200 and 500. It takes 3 trigger pulls with the Hilti gun so I put each trigger pull in a different location. We are working in limestone, but only get voids with 1-in-20 holes drilled. I'm not very concerned with air pockets since the glue is so overkill strong and the bolt is stainless. |
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If you are using RE 500, grocery bags are pretty much the miracle cure to mess. They do an incredible job of wiping it up. |
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Brendan N. (grayhghost) wrote:We have used Hilti 200 and 500. It takes 3 trigger pulls with the Hilti gun so I put each trigger pull in a different location. We are working in limestone, but only get voids with 1-in-20 holes drilled. I'm not very concerned with air pockets since the glue is so overkill strong and the bolt is stainless. Splooging is just excess glue coming out of the hole as you hammer the bolt in.I use 2/3's of a pull for each hole. Either my glue-gun is different or I use a lot less glue (probably the latter) for the particular bolts I've been using. AIR BUBBLES: Without an interference fit, an air bubble in the glue will push a bolt back out of the hole. If you force it in the bubble will splatter you in the face as it bursts. Of course, this depends on the viscosity of the glue; I use a tooth-paste consistency coming out of the nozzle so it stays put in an overhanging wall. Air bubbles bursting out of the hole as a bolt is hammered in was/is my leading theory for some of the ugly placements I've seen. It explains the gaps at the surface of the hole and the "strips" of dried glue on the bolts and rock. The number of voids I see depends highly on the features of the wall I'm at. Walls with lots of pockets on the surface also have lots of pockets below the surface. Tapping with a hammer helps, but if you drill and strike 1 or 2 grape-sized pockets, you need to increase the amount of glue, and so, must take the bolt out. Just so you know, in my environment stainless steel is worthless. I don't know if you're bolting in the desert or someplace wetter, but I'd recommend you try to eliminate air pockets. Not necessarily for strength, but for longevity. Limestone is porous. Water percolates behind the surface and can collect in an air-pocket and start corroding the steel. We KNOW that limestone-runoff WILL corrode stainless, especially in a crevice-like environment. |
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JohnWesely wrote:If you are using RE 500, grocery bags are pretty much the miracle cure to mess. They do an incredible job of wiping it up.Do you mean plastic grocery bags used as rags? |