Rappel Back-ups

matt c. wrote: Actually, I don't believe that autoblocks are 'stupid easy' to set up… I am proficient in setting up auto-block with different size … After experiencing how fickle auto blocks can be, I am still not sure I would recommend a beginner climber use an autoblock, when they are not skilled or experienced enough to check to see if it has adequate functionality.

Good stuff Matt. Different ropes have different properties. I am fortunate enough to have only two ropes, both 10mm, both about the same amount of fuzzy. So my 5mm auto block cordelette works the same on both. 5 wraps keep the knot on the side. As far as us beginners using/not using an auto block, well experience is the teacher. If you don’t practice with one how are you going to figure out whether it works, or not?

My beer can stays in the fridge, these new aluminum cans can’t stand any pressure. But I am tempted from time to time to grab a fist sized rock and jam it in a crack then rap a sling around it. I wonder if it would hold?

redlude97 wrote: Just to clarify 1 point, IIRC the PAS broke in a factor 1.25 fall in a drop test situation without any rope, which is the case when using it as a tether

Reference please! I am 220 lbs. I am thinking a 1 foot fall on a static rope/tether/sling/PAS would be a factor 2 fall. I could die. Fortunately when I am tethered in with my PAS I only have an inch or so of play.

new climbers who may be less aware of slack in the system it me be less "safe" ...
It makes no sense to get newer climbers to spend 30$ right off the bat for something that isn’t as useful and less "safe"

Bearbreeder, I am a new climber. Please take the time to explain to me why a PAS is less safe than a sling. I find it easier to choose an appropriate length loop than to tie and re-tie knots to get the correct length to reduce slack.

Plus, how is a PAS less useful than a sling?

I am not trying to be a smart ass, I am just trying to learn.

Dallas R wrote: Bearbreeder, I am a new climber. Please take the time to explain to me why a PAS is less safe than a sling. I find it easier to choose an appropriate length loop than to tie and re-tie knots to get the correct length to reduce slack. Plus, how is a PAS less useful than a sling? I am not trying to be a smart ass, I am just trying to learn.

read the climbing.com/skill/anchors-… i posted the last page with the accident ... for the "safety" of a dyneema PAS

as to usefulness, i posted a pic a few pages ago where a PAS may not make an effective friction hitch .. while a nylon sling does

while everyone claims not to get off the ground without at least 2 prusiks (and a partridge in a pear tree) the history of climbing is littered with folks having no prusiks or dropping them ... the classic example is joe simpson dropping one of his in touching the void

if you use a nylon sling as a "PAS", you always have an extra friction knot for emergencies

also note that even if you do somehow make a friction knot with a PAS, the last gen metolius ones, the loops were too small for most folks to get their foot into as a foot stirrup

with a nylon sling you wont have the above issues

George, if you want to make your own personal anchor out of dynamic cord, there's always the purcell prussik

"I am thinking a 1 foot fall on a static rope/tether/sling/PAS would be a factor 2 fall. "

Yes it could be, if it's a 6 inch sling.

Dallas, there is no practical sense in which PAS is "less safe" than a sling because, among other things, it is a sling. It is possible to raise various fine points about creating loops by knotting rather than sewing chain links, but I don't think there is any genuine practical content to any of it, it boils down to personal perspectives.

Then there is the dyneema vs. nylon business. Nylon will withstand bigger shock loads, although it isn't entirely clear whether those bigger loads can be produced by real falling climbers in real climbing situations. But if one considers this to be a real problem, there are all-nylon PAS's to be had, so ultimately there is no issue there either; the choice of PAS material is exactly the same as the choice of an ordinary sling for anchoring purposes.

There is a little more content to the utility debate. Even here though, I think personal perspectives overwhelm any objective considerations, and I'm not sure everyone is even using the same definition of utility. At one end of the definition spectrum, utility might mean breadth of different uses, while at the other end of the spectrum it might refer to appropriateness for a specific purpose. The result is that the utility debaters are often not using the same criteria for their claims. One fairly clear example of differing perspectives is that some of the arguments posted view the PAS as having no use beyond rappelling, whereas other perspectives envision a considerably broader range of applications.

At the end of the day, the fundamental issue is whether it is worth having some sort of tether more or less permanently installed on one's harness for certain types of climbing, and if so, how much adjustability is desirable. The fact that this minor personal choice can generate so much internet verbiage is a testimony to the inclination of the human race to find something to argue about, no matter how inconsequential.

So new climber or old hand, if a PAS fits will with the way you like to do things, fine, if not, just as fine. Maybe you'll use one for a while and give it up in favor of improvised slings, or maybe you'll head in the reverse direction, or maybe you'll use one method for some types of climbs and the other method for other types of climbs. In the real world of climbing rather than the endlessly contentious internet, it's all good.

rgold wrote:... it's all good.

While I could hear the wind being let out of our sails by Rich, another group somewhere else launched into it. :-)

rgold wrote:Dallas, there is no practical sense in which PAS is "less safe" than a sling because, among other things, it is a sling. It is possible to raise various fine points about creating loops by knotting rather than sewing chain links, but I don't think there is any genuine practical content to any of it, it boils down to personal perspectives. Then there is the dyneema vs. nylon business. Nylon will withstand bigger shock loads, although it isn't entirely clear whether those bigger loads can be produced by real falling climbers in real climbing situations. But if one considers this to be a real problem, there are all-nylon PAS's to be had, so ultimately there is no issue there either; the choice of PAS material is exactly the same as the choice of an ordinary sling for anchoring purposes. There is a little more content to the utility debate. Even here though, I think personal perspectives overwhelm any objective considerations, and I'm not sure everyone is even using the same definition of utility. At one end of the definition spectrum, utility might mean breadth of different uses, while at the other end of the spectrum it might refer to appropriateness for a specific purpose. The result is that the utility debaters are often not using the same criteria for their claims. One fairly clear example of differing perspectives is that some of the arguments posted view the PAS as having no use beyond rappelling, whereas other perspectives envision a considerably broader range of applications. At the end of the day, the fundamental issue is whether it is worth having some sort of tether more or less permanently installed on one's harness for certain types of climbing, and if so, how much adjustability is desirable. The fact that this minor personal choice can generate so much internet verbiage is a testimony to the inclination of the human race to find something to argue about, no matter how inconsequential. So new climber or old hand, if a PAS fits will with the way you like to do things, fine, if not, just as fine. Maybe you'll use one for a while and give it up in favor of improvised slings, or maybe you'll head in the reverse direction, or maybe you'll use one method for some types of climbs and the other method for other types of climbs. In the real world of climbing rather than the endlessly contentious internet, it's all good.

PURE GOLD

bearbreeder wrote: read the climbing.com/skill/anchors-… i posted

Fixed link linky

the vast majority of PASes out here you see out there in climbing are the metolius spectra/dyneema ones, not the sterling nylon ones

now there is a PAS is generally not "unsafe" if used properly, keeping the slack out of the system

however over and over again i see folks with slack in the system, climbing above the anchors, setting up TRs above a cliffs edge with it as a "safety", etc ...

ive even caught a partner or two climbing above the anchors at busy belay stations to make room .... thinking that dyneema PAS will catch em if they fall

heres even a fairly popular climbing blog giving PAS advice in their "tech tips" ... if you fell over a cliffs edge clipped in with dyneema PAS, thats a > factor 1 fall, possibly factor 2

sure you may live if your sling doesnt break, but it sure wont be pretty ...

I use my PAS all the time for setting top ropes. At a number of areas you can scramble to the top of the cliff and drop your ropes on climbs after clipping the anchors. Hence, I use my PAS as a point of contact with the anchor to try to ensure my safety.
While you should be concerned about clipping an anchor below a cliff edge and falling off, generating a lot of force quickly, it doesn’t mean you just shouldn’t clip in when working at the cliff’s edge. Use your judgment and take some steps to safeguard yourself when working at the edge.

http://www.splitterchoss.com/2012/03/23/tech-tip-the-big-bad-p-a-s/

over and over again i see folks using a PAS in ways they are not meant to be used

now nylon slings arent meant to catch those type of falls either ... but ...

The results of the sling drops were startling. Brand-new, 22-inch-long Spectra (a polyethylene fiber also manufactured under the brand name Dyneema) runners, CE-rated to nearly 5,000 pounds, broke at the end of their 44-inch falls, grim testaments to the forces you can achieve when you fall directly onto a sling. Interestingly, nylon runners, even old, faded ones scrounged off desert towers, subjected to the same test, did not break, although the shock loads surpassed two tons, far beyond the maximum 2,697 pounds force allowed by the UIAA for single ropes.

Attribute the nylon slings’ durability to the material itself. Nylon, even when it is made with a static weave, as with a runner, has some elasticity. Spectra, though it is 15 times stronger than steel, “is as static as static can be,” says Scott Newell, President of Blue Water Ropes, the first manufacturer to market Spectra slings. “Spectra is incredibly strong, but only as long as you apply the load gradually.”

rockandice.com/lates-news/t…

its still a BAD idea to fall on a nylon sling ... the key is to develop the skills to NEVER have slack in a tethering system

however many new climbers make take some time to develop those habits, and they may forget about it in the heat of the moment ...

since were talking about reducing the "risk" here and "safety" especially for newer climbers ...

why get em to spend 30$ on something less safe when something 5$ will do and perhaps provide a greater "safety" margin ... or perhaps even better a short piece of dynamic rope formed into a cowstail that costs like 5$ as well

if you are going to spend $$$$ on a dedicated "PAS" then this one at least has a "safety" benefit

beal-planet.com/2014/anglai…

or make youre own

additional information for ~factor 1 fall scenarios ... which i feel folks, especially newer climbers, put themselves in more than they realize

i see it quite a bit

caves.org/section/vertical/…

british-caving.org.uk/rope/…

rgold wrote:Dallas, there is no practical sense in which PAS is "less safe" than a sling because, among other things, it is a sling. ... it's all good.

+1

Also, thanks for all the great info bearbreeder, very much appreciated.

i think links to websites with actual test and valid data are always relevant in an era when false info spreads faster than good info.

bearbreeder, thanks for the info, downloaded and saved for future reference.

Just when you think you got it figured out someone proves to you that what you are doing may have greater risk than what you had anticipated.

Newbie confession #63. I like top roping. It is amazing what I will risk to scramble to the top of a ledge and then more amazing the exposure I will endure to creep over to an anchor so I can clip in and set a top rope so I will not have to take a fall while climbing.

All good climbers are now making a face like they just sucked on a lemon.

It is becoming more clear to me that it is better to take a lead fall than to take such risks to set a top rope.

What this discussion has done for me is to make very real the fact that if I clip my PAS into an anchor to set a top rope I am not "safe". Should I be above it, and then take a header, the PAS may fail. Granted I will be frantically seeking friction in such and instance, but it may not be enough to keep my 220 from slamming the end of the PAS. TaTa give my love to the Grandkids.

But what this discussion has also done is to make me aware of the proper use of the PAS. Keep the PAS taught is my new mantra. Get a good clean climb, hook the PAS to the anchor, set back on it so it remains taught, manage the rope as necessary.

And back to the beginning, use a friction backup while rappelling.

Still not dead....

Good thing we're not made out of a solid metal.

Buff Johnson wrote:Good thing we're not made out of a solid metal.

Speak for yourself Buff.
Signed,
Clark K.

This is basically the PAS that I use (yea the bolt isn't on the end and mine is longer). I think it is probably the strongest one out there. It will hold alot of factor 2 falls.