Rappel Back-ups
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matt c. wrote: Actually, I don't believe that autoblocks are 'stupid easy' to set up I am proficient in setting up auto-block with different size After experiencing how fickle auto blocks can be, I am still not sure I would recommend a beginner climber use an autoblock, when they are not skilled or experienced enough to check to see if it has adequate functionality.Good stuff Matt. Different ropes have different properties. I am fortunate enough to have only two ropes, both 10mm, both about the same amount of fuzzy. So my 5mm auto block cordelette works the same on both. 5 wraps keep the knot on the side. As far as us beginners using/not using an auto block, well experience is the teacher. If you dont practice with one how are you going to figure out whether it works, or not? My beer can stays in the fridge, these new aluminum cans cant stand any pressure. But I am tempted from time to time to grab a fist sized rock and jam it in a crack then rap a sling around it. I wonder if it would hold? redlude97 wrote: Just to clarify 1 point, IIRC the PAS broke in a factor 1.25 fall in a drop test situation without any rope, which is the case when using it as a tetherReference please! I am 220 lbs. I am thinking a 1 foot fall on a static rope/tether/sling/PAS would be a factor 2 fall. I could die. Fortunately when I am tethered in with my PAS I only have an inch or so of play. new climbers who may be less aware of slack in the system it me be less "safe" ... It makes no sense to get newer climbers to spend 30$ right off the bat for something that isnt as useful and less "safe" Bearbreeder, I am a new climber. Please take the time to explain to me why a PAS is less safe than a sling. I find it easier to choose an appropriate length loop than to tie and re-tie knots to get the correct length to reduce slack. Plus, how is a PAS less useful than a sling? I am not trying to be a smart ass, I am just trying to learn. |
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Dallas R wrote: Bearbreeder, I am a new climber. Please take the time to explain to me why a PAS is less safe than a sling. I find it easier to choose an appropriate length loop than to tie and re-tie knots to get the correct length to reduce slack. Plus, how is a PAS less useful than a sling? I am not trying to be a smart ass, I am just trying to learn.read the climbing.com/skill/anchors-… i posted the last page with the accident ... for the "safety" of a dyneema PAS as to usefulness, i posted a pic a few pages ago where a PAS may not make an effective friction hitch .. while a nylon sling does while everyone claims not to get off the ground without at least 2 prusiks (and a partridge in a pear tree) the history of climbing is littered with folks having no prusiks or dropping them ... the classic example is joe simpson dropping one of his in touching the void if you use a nylon sling as a "PAS", you always have an extra friction knot for emergencies also note that even if you do somehow make a friction knot with a PAS, the last gen metolius ones, the loops were too small for most folks to get their foot into as a foot stirrup with a nylon sling you wont have the above issues |
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George, if you want to make your own personal anchor out of dynamic cord, there's always the purcell prussik |
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"I am thinking a 1 foot fall on a static rope/tether/sling/PAS would be a factor 2 fall. " |
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Dallas, there is no practical sense in which PAS is "less safe" than a sling because, among other things, it is a sling. It is possible to raise various fine points about creating loops by knotting rather than sewing chain links, but I don't think there is any genuine practical content to any of it, it boils down to personal perspectives. |
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rgold wrote:... it's all good.While I could hear the wind being let out of our sails by Rich, another group somewhere else launched into it. :-) |
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rgold wrote:Dallas, there is no practical sense in which PAS is "less safe" than a sling because, among other things, it is a sling. It is possible to raise various fine points about creating loops by knotting rather than sewing chain links, but I don't think there is any genuine practical content to any of it, it boils down to personal perspectives. Then there is the dyneema vs. nylon business. Nylon will withstand bigger shock loads, although it isn't entirely clear whether those bigger loads can be produced by real falling climbers in real climbing situations. But if one considers this to be a real problem, there are all-nylon PAS's to be had, so ultimately there is no issue there either; the choice of PAS material is exactly the same as the choice of an ordinary sling for anchoring purposes. There is a little more content to the utility debate. Even here though, I think personal perspectives overwhelm any objective considerations, and I'm not sure everyone is even using the same definition of utility. At one end of the definition spectrum, utility might mean breadth of different uses, while at the other end of the spectrum it might refer to appropriateness for a specific purpose. The result is that the utility debaters are often not using the same criteria for their claims. One fairly clear example of differing perspectives is that some of the arguments posted view the PAS as having no use beyond rappelling, whereas other perspectives envision a considerably broader range of applications. At the end of the day, the fundamental issue is whether it is worth having some sort of tether more or less permanently installed on one's harness for certain types of climbing, and if so, how much adjustability is desirable. The fact that this minor personal choice can generate so much internet verbiage is a testimony to the inclination of the human race to find something to argue about, no matter how inconsequential. So new climber or old hand, if a PAS fits will with the way you like to do things, fine, if not, just as fine. Maybe you'll use one for a while and give it up in favor of improvised slings, or maybe you'll head in the reverse direction, or maybe you'll use one method for some types of climbs and the other method for other types of climbs. In the real world of climbing rather than the endlessly contentious internet, it's all good.PURE GOLD |
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bearbreeder wrote: read the climbing.com/skill/anchors-… i postedFixed link linky |
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the vast majority of PASes out here you see out there in climbing are the metolius spectra/dyneema ones, not the sterling nylon ones beal-planet.com/2014/anglai… or make youre own |
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additional information for ~factor 1 fall scenarios ... which i feel folks, especially newer climbers, put themselves in more than they realize |
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rgold wrote:Dallas, there is no practical sense in which PAS is "less safe" than a sling because, among other things, it is a sling. ... it's all good.+1 Also, thanks for all the great info bearbreeder, very much appreciated. |
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i think links to websites with actual test and valid data are always relevant in an era when false info spreads faster than good info. |
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Just when you think you got it figured out someone proves to you that what you are doing may have greater risk than what you had anticipated. |
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Good thing we're not made out of a solid metal. |
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Buff Johnson wrote:Good thing we're not made out of a solid metal.Speak for yourself Buff. Signed, Clark K. |
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This is basically the PAS that I use (yea the bolt isn't on the end and mine is longer). I think it is probably the strongest one out there. It will hold alot of factor 2 falls. |