Rappel Back-ups

Like telling me the beer can in my chalk bag is pointless. Sure it only serves one purpose most of the time but you can once in a while put it in a crack a stick a sling on it.

How many factor-2 falls can that beer can take? Don't be an idiot and use a beer can that will snap under a dynamic shock load.

thanks for all the insight steve! back ups should be standard! whats better nylon slings or the newer dyneema? i notice with one thin rope its better to add an extra biner to the belay rope adding friction to the rappel....slowing the system. seems like a good trick for thin ,wet ,sketchy situations............

rgold wrote:How many factor-2 falls can that beer can take? Don't be an idiot and use a beer can that will snap under a dynamic shock load.

They haven't made FF2 beer cans since the 70's. The old steel ones.

The History of Beer Cans

matt c. wrote:For me, the jury is still out on friction hitches. Yes, they can save your life but only if they are set up correctly. With a friction hitch, the autoblock can be tricky to set up and fail relatively easily. I don't like the idea of giving someone a false sense of security during rappelling. Here is an example of when the 'auto-block' failed. From what I read, this type of failure is relatively common.

An autoblock is stupid easy to set up. 2-3 wraps around the rope. The jury is most assuredly not out. Saying the "jury is out" because they can cause problems if set up incorrectly is like saying ATC's aren't proven belay devices because you can rig them incorrectly as well. I have never had an auto block fail and I use one on most all rappels. Its just like any part of climbing, learn how to use it properly and its works fine.

bb wrote: "There have been fatalities with dyneema slings used as lanyards, which is why beal made the dynaconnect lanyard"

Those fatalities were on via ferratas. Those victims might have died anyway from the severe impacts that can happen on via ferratas, even if they were using nylon lanyards without something like Screamers incorporated into the lanyard attachments. That's why Beal, Petzl and other manufacturers have since begun incorporating what are basically Screamers into their lanyards for via ferratas.

I suppose that someone could attach a Screamer to an anchor, if the intent is to climb above the anchor while tethered to it. However, being belayed with the dynamic rope clipped through the anchor would be a lot smarter.

rgold wrote:I think the whole argument is now beyond silly.

I agree that there is a lot of silliness involved in the thread. But there is some good information also. Auto blocks, how they work, how they can fail. The danger of miss clipping an ATC on rappel. The courtesy of a fireman's belay, if necessary. PAS, the good the bad and the ugly.

Another new set up to learn; Purcell Prusik.

This newbie appreciates the frank discussion.

James Hicks wrote: An autoblock is stupid easy to set up. 2-3 wraps around the rope. The jury is most assuredly not out. Saying the "jury is out" because they can cause problems if set up incorrectly is like saying ATC's aren't proven belay devices because you can rig them incorrectly as well. I have never had an auto block fail and I use one on most all rappels. Its just like any part of climbing, learn how to use it properly and its works fine.

Actually, I don't believe that autoblocks are 'stupid easy' to set up. I think that it is stupid easy to tie a klemheist or prusik below your device and think that it is an autoblock. However, setting up an autoblock correctly can be tricky.

In a course of a day canyoneering I rap of different size rope, both double and single line. I am proficient in setting up auto-block with different size ropes but only became proficient after some trial and error. An auto-block set up with one rope does not always work with another rope, even if the ropes are same diameter. A soft dynamic rope requires less wraps then a static rope. Also, in some ropes a klemheist with 3 raps around the rope was not enough but four raps caused the autoblock to bind.

Another poster recommended people so some back yard testing to make sure that their setup really work and that you are just slapping a placebo friction hitch below your atc.

After experiencing how fickle auto blocks can be, I am still not sure I would recommend a beginner climber use an autoblock, when they are not skilled or experienced enough to check to see if it has adequate functionality.

Lotta autoblock talk, but no one has mentioned using two binders through your belay device as a way to increase friction and slow down your descent, it's certainly not hands free, but it can give you a lot more control with your brake hand.

ViperScale wrote:Like telling me the beer can in my chalk bag is pointless. Sure it only serves one purpose most of the time but you can once in a while put it in a crack a stick a sling on it.

haha i can't believe i almost missed this... well played!

bearbreeder wrote: The old PAS breaks in a factor ~1.25 fall in tests It may have nylon but the dyneema portiob doesnt allow much stretch Does this matter? ... That depends on your point of view ... There have been fatalities with dyneema slings used as lanyards, which is why beal made the dynaconnect lanyard Personally im not too worried, but if we are going all out on "safety" on this thread, then yr better off using a nylon sling, or a beal dynamic lanyard, than a PAS

Just to clarify 1 point, IIRC the PAS broke in a factor 1.25 fall in a drop test situation without any rope, which is the case when using it as a tether

You're using the wrong type. They have to be the flexible kind - see, you have the cardboard insert type.

clicky thing:
walmart.com/ip/BNDR-VIEW-1-…

This happened to me, except that I didn't notice it and ended up falling 40+ feet and bouncing another 2 feet.

Bill M wrote:In my case the tail on the rope was several feet long and I loaded one of the correct strands and one of the tails. I felt something odd in my hand as I started to descend and stopped. I was not using an auto block and nearly shit my pants.

Jake Jones wrote: How in the world am I going to fit two of these in a belay device? I can certainly see how it would slow the descent though.

Good job, Jake. I was wondering if anyone would say anything about that. Those types of mistakes should not go without public flogging for butchering our beloved English language. Thanks for being there for me.

matt c. wrote: Actually, I don't believe that autoblocks are 'stupid easy' to set up. I think that it is stupid easy to tie a klemheist or prusik below your device and think that it is an autoblock. However, setting up an autoblock correctly can be tricky. In a course of a day canyoneering I rap of different size rope, both double and single line. I am proficient in setting up auto-block with different size ropes but only became proficient after some trial and error. An auto-block set up with one rope does not always work with another rope, even if the ropes are same diameter. A soft dynamic rope requires less wraps then a static rope. Also, in some ropes a klemheist with 3 raps around the rope was not enough but four raps caused the autoblock to bind. Another poster recommended people so some back yard testing to make sure that their setup really work and that you are just slapping a placebo friction hitch below your atc. After experiencing how fickle auto blocks can be, I am still not sure I would recommend a beginner climber use an autoblock, when they are not skilled or experienced enough to check to see if it has adequate functionality.

i totally agree with this.

my stable of ropes is 8mm doubles, 8.4mm static all the way to new 10.5mm and fuzzy 10.5mm. plus, i often rap off 8mm canyon tech cords.

all these ropes need different length prussiks, and/or varying raps for correct friction.

i saw first hand a few weeks ago that even experienced climbers and/or canyoneers can incorrectly set up an autoblock when they encounter a rope that is vastly different from their normal setup.

most people own less ropes than me, so perhaps setting and forgetting works, but this may lead to a situation where the incorrectly set autoblock isn't even a false sense of security, but an actual hazard.

in case anyone is actually reeading this to gain knowledge. generally speaking 3 neat wraps around the rope is necessary, however, this isnt an absolute and may require more or less wraps.

also, it's imperative the autoblock doesn't feed into the belay device. if it does, not only won't it stop you, it might open the angle for the rope to feed through even faster, making regaining control less likely and loosing control more likely.

tie a prussik loop with a double fishermans and then adjust as necessary for each rope by tying an overhand right above the fishermans. then do your raps, clip the ends (above the overhand, not below) and test the friction. you only need to set this up once per day, once it's correct aand if the ropes are the same all day, you are good.

if multiple ropes or rappel styles (single vs double) are involved, either skip the autoblock or make proper adjustments. don't assume one setup works for all ropes.

i think the lesson we can learn is not everything in climbing is absolute. assess each situation and adapt.

sterlingrope.com/product/15…

Weighs nothing, and works far better than nylon/poly cord in my experience. 2 wraps is almost always sufficient, but I will throw 3 in for skinny ropes or single rope raps. It provides excellent friction, is incredibly strong, and seems to work well on a wide range of rope diameters (I have tried it on ropes from 8.2 - 10.5 without any problem). Most importantly, it locks up even when the autoblock is not dressed. This seems to be due to the flat flexible weave.

Also, the 13.5" size is short enough that it would be very difficult (I can't say impossible without some testing) to get the autoblock to bump into the belay device when rigged off a leg loop with at least 2 wraps.

It can also be used as a spare sling if needed, so it's not totally single use.

George Bracksieck wrote:bb wrote: "There have been fatalities with dyneema slings used as lanyards, which is why beal made the dynaconnect lanyard" Those fatalities were on via ferratas. Those victims might have died anyway from the severe impacts that can happen on via ferratas, even if they were using nylon lanyards without something like Screamers incorporated into the lanyard attachments. That's why Beal, Petzl and other manufacturers have since begun incorporating what are basically Screamers into their lanyards for via ferratas. I suppose that someone could attach a Screamer to an anchor, if the intent is to climb above the anchor while tethered to it. However, being belayed with the dynamic rope clipped through the anchor would be a lot smarter.

A 2007 incident on the Grand Capucin near Chamonix, France, exemplifies the danger: A climber fell less than two feet onto the Dyneema sling attaching him to his anchor; the resulting impact broke the anchor sling, and the climber fell to his death. Ledges break, climbers slip—and the result can be dynamic loading of an anchor.

climbing.com/skill/anchors-…

redlude97 wrote: Just to clarify 1 point, IIRC the PAS broke in a factor 1.25 fall in a drop test situation without any rope, which is the case when using it as a tether

Which is the PAS "discussion"

The actual metolius PAS is certainly not any "safer" than a nylon sling

And for new climbers who may be less aware of slack in the system it me be less "safe" ... For 5-6 times the price

It makes no sense to get newer climbers to spend 30$ right off the bat for something that isnt as useful and less "safe"

Yet i see PASes recommended all the time to em

matt c. wrote: Actually, I don't believe that autoblocks are 'stupid easy' to set up. I think that it is stupid easy to tie a klemheist or prusik below your device and think that it is an autoblock. However, setting up an autoblock correctly can be tricky. In a course of a day canyoneering I rap of different size rope, both double and single line. I am proficient in setting up auto-block with different size ropes but only became proficient after some trial and error. An auto-block set up with one rope does not always work with another rope, even if the ropes are same diameter. A soft dynamic rope requires less wraps then a static rope. Also, in some ropes a klemheist with 3 raps around the rope was not enough but four raps caused the autoblock to bind. Another poster recommended people so some back yard testing to make sure that their setup really work and that you are just slapping a placebo friction hitch below your atc. After experiencing how fickle auto blocks can be, I am still not sure I would recommend a beginner climber use an autoblock, when they are not skilled or experienced enough to check to see if it has adequate functionality.

When in doubt use a prusik ... Its a proven performer

If you only have slings, the hedden is a proven performer as well

A big problem with friction backups is gettig enough wraps that it grips, but not so many that you can barely feed the rope

Not only does this vary by the diameter as mentioned

But also by how fuzzy or stiff the rope becomes after use

You can have the same rope, one new and slick ... The other fuzzy and stiff ... And you may require a different number of wraps

We wont even talk about wet or muddy ropes ...

It all comes back to TESTING your setup

bb wrote: "There have been fatalities with dyneema slings used as lanyards, which is why beal made the dynaconnect lanyard"

bb quoted this from the link to an article in Climbing: "A 2007 incident on the Grand Capucin near Chamonix, France, exemplifies the danger: A climber fell less than two feet onto the Dyneema sling attaching him to his anchor; the resulting impact broke the anchor sling, and the climber fell to his death. Ledges break, climbers slip—and the result can be dynamic loading of an anchor."

I'm aware of three companies that produce "lanyards." Each of the three markets "lanyards" as shock-absorbing slings or pairs of slings. The climber who died on the Capucin wasn't using a "lanyard" in this sense. What happened to him is an eye opener, though. This leads me to consider using a shock-absorbing lanyard for anchoring.

Petzl and Camp make lanyards specifically for via ferratas. Beal's lanyards are made specifically to prevent what happened on the Capucin. Made from dynamic rope, Beal's are relatively lightweight and can be impacted a number of times before retirement.

I think each of the Beal models could be homemade from a segment of dynamic rope, tying a figure-eight or triple eight on a bight on each end and an alpine butterfly near the middle, with a loop long enough to girth-hitch through the rope tie-in on the harness. Or you could tie into one rope segment, as if you were tying into a rope, clipping the loop on the other end as you would a PAS. Or you could cut dynamic rope into segments and knot those into looped slings. Thick rope would be heavy and bulky. Thin rope may be too weak.

If you have a Screamer, it could be used with static slings — or a PAS.