Rappel Back-ups

Ya'll are funny.

Started with the dreaded chain a couple years ago. Run the purcell now in the alpine, which works great. Also looking at using a 120cm sling instead, knotted near the halfway point, girth hitched at the harness. Clip-in point, useful to extend rappel if desired. Blah Blah Blah.

Probably the better question is not "should you use something besides the rope to clip in", but "where do you keep it whilst not using?"

I prefer the twisted thong method, personally.

The Blueprint Part Dank wrote:And I heard of something called shock loading. It sounds very serious, so I want to avoid that.

I don't get the mocking of this. Peak loads are high. There is no question there. Neither is there any doubt that a 4-foot fall on static gear will produce high peak forces. Or is there?

Hey bearbreeder - if you don't want that PAS I'll take it. It's the older model that is longer that I like better. I'll PM you my address. Take it off your hands so no one will think you are a noob climber. ;)

Edit - I will pay money for it too if you want to sell it.

Adam Burch wrote: "where do you keep it whilst not using?" I prefer the twisted thong method, personally.

I wrap it around my waist. It goes around once perfectly. It doesn't interfere with getting gear either and stays out of the way.

George Bracksieck wrote:All of this foul discharge about the PAS is misleading. The PAS is much better than a daisy because each loop is runner-strong. It provides quick anchoring and length adjustment. This obnoxious spray reminds me of the bullies who used to dis helmet wear by dictating that only gumbies were interested in protecting the most important part of their bodies.

George you are somewhat correct about the PAS loops being stronger, but thats not the issue with the daisy chain system. Where the DCs were actually breaking is where the DC material meets the carabiner due to the bunching of the material that makes contact with the carabiner. The main issue with the DCs were that they are sometimes made of Spectra that has a much lower melting point than Nylon. The PAS attenuates this by adding more Spectra and nylon in combo in each loop giving it the ability to withstand a higher peak force and more importantly a higher temperature. I personally am a medium purcell guy, but I feel the newer PAS works just fine too. Be safe!!!

Matt

A daisy is a sling closed with runner-strength bar tacking. The many small loops are then created by one or two bar tacks for each loop. (I"m not looking at a daisy now, so I'm not sure how many bar tacks are used to close each small loop.) I recall that the TOTAL strength of the bar tacks creating each of the small loops is only about 300 lbs. (Correct me about this bar-tack strength if I'm wrong.) If a climber were to clip a carabiner into one of those loops and then adjust the daisy's length by clipping the same carabiner into another loop, without removing it from the first loop, the carabiner is no longer clipped to the overall daisy sling. I recall that at least one daisy failed under a small load, with disastrous results. That's why the PAS was invented.

BTW the PAS isn't merely a daisy substitute. It is a convenient choice for many anchor situations.

O.L.D.S.A.G. wrote:Hey bearbreeder - if you don't want that PAS I'll take it. It's the older model that is longer that I like better. I'll PM you my address. Take it off your hands so no one will think you are a noob climber. ;) Edit - I will pay money for it too if you want to sell it.

its retired .... its been used daily for a few years

George Bracksieck wrote: I agree with Steve Levin and disagree with bb's disagreement. We learn to climb from a variety of teaching sources. In most cases, beginning climbers learn from possibly more experienced climbers, who might have learned or developed bad habits and who may exercise poor judgment when setting up rappels for their companions. Even instruction books, catalogs, and Web sites occasionally propagate problematic techniques, such as Petzl's advocacy of extending the rappel device far above the backup Shunt attached to the belay loop. (I agree with bb that extending the rappel device out of easy reach is a BAD idea. I also agree that a Prusik backup attached to the ropes above the rappel device is a BAD idea.) Yes, each of us is ultimately responsible for the choices each of us makes. However, leaders/teachers/mentors/guides have a greater responsibility: to safeguard their innocent companions. Guides have, over the years, been forced by bad choices to consider different approaches to climbing safety. We've heard of the recent and less-recent guided disasters on Mount Rainier and Everest. I've climbed with AMGA-certified guides, some of whom were eventually killed while climbing and some who were taught some crappy techniques by the AMGA, such as girth-hitching a tether/daisy/PAS directly to the belay loop, instead of through the rope-tie-in path. And some climbing gyms teach belaying with the brake hand out in front, instead of pulling the rope back to the side with it, to brake a fall. How are beginners to know whether their leaders are setting them up for disaster? The many aspects of climbing require long learning curves that many of us are lucky to have survived. Climbing is like life — there's always more to learn along the way, and what works for one may not for another. A climber may sift through all the info out there, as well as through the comments made herein, and discern what may be the best way to set up a rappel. I applaud Steve for reminding us about what can wrong without a correctly applied rappel backup.

i want to make this quite clear ...

unless one asks someone specifically to be "guided" or to learn the basics ... the final responsibility of your own safety is in YOUR hands

while a "good parter" should always look out for the safety of their partners, its not always possible to give fireman belays, mistakes get made, even the best folks have judgement errors

you must insure your own safety through the practice of skills and proper procedures whenever possible

this absolute includes testing and weighting you rap setup, including the backup, EVERYTIME you rap ... or a double visual check if its not possible

ive had plenty of good partners ... but then ive had a few that lacked the basic technical skills, or didnt practice them enough, even though they climbed quite hard (including a "sponsored" climber who couldnt setup a rappel)

it is YOUR responsibility to seek out that instruction and insure you develop or learn systems to keep you safe

if you dont have the ability, let your partner know this before time ... so he can tone down the scale or level of the route as hell be playing guide, which many climber dont enjoy doing (nor do many have the self rescue skills to safely do so)

as to PASes ... the PAS is no safer than a nylon sling with 2 overhand knots ... and in fact may be theoretically more dangerous if you believe in the deadly dyneema thing

>

matt c. wrote:For me, the jury is still out on friction hitches. Yes, they can save your life but only if they are set up correctly. With a friction hitch, the autoblock can be tricky to set up and fail relatively easily. I don't like the idea of giving someone a false sense of security during rappelling. Here is an example of when the 'auto-block' failed. From what I read, this type of failure is relatively common. youtube.com/watch?v=3T4FT2S…

Is it just me, or did he thread the rope through the ATC funny, using both holes for one rope? Time 1:06

George yes you are correct. The issue though with the traditional spectra DCs wasn't that people were clipping into it incorrectly(although it happens), the issue was that people would either clip into a chain link correctly and then accidentally shock load it causing that particular link to break, then shock loading the next link, but dissipating the load each time where you would eventually stop breaking the next link or until you hit the end of the loop. The real issue was that people would clip correctly into the end of the chain, climb above the clip in point then accidentally slip an fall shock loading the DC causing a tremendous force in that static DC where it would then explode the DC where it was clipped into the carabiner due to force and heat of the low melting point of the spectra. A nylon DC is much better.
Hope this helps...

Matt

bb wrote: "the PAS is no safer than a nylon sling with 2 overhand knots ... and in fact may be theoretically more dangerous if you believe in the deadly dyneema thing"

I'm looking at my Metolius PAS, and the material appears to be about 70% nylon and 30% Spectra (Dyneema). While Dyneema has a lower melting point than nylon, I've seen nylon melt due to friction with other nylon. Unless you make a friction hitch out of a PAS, I have a hard time seeing how its 30% Dyneema could be problem. If you think it's ok to shock-load your nylon sling, think again. A nylon sling DOESN'T stretch noticeably, and knots weaken it. I agree with Matt that shock-loading a Spectra (Dyneema) daisy may melt it, but no one should be shock-loading a nylon daisy or sling, because of the impact it may create on the body and the anchor.

Good video capture, Fiona. That's what he did alright! I've never attempted a rappel with an ATC threaded like that, but my guess is the angle of the rope going into the device is not sharp enough to provide the necessary friction. What the hell were they rapping single lines for, anyway? Weren't they canyoneering and doing pull downs?

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's taken short cuts because of fatigue, haste, or just because we've gotten away with short cuts hundreds of times before. I know that if anchoring on a ledge, or backing up my Tyrolean, is made easy, then I will do it. Sure, I should do it anyway, yet the quick convenience of a PAS can help me just do it.

Stich wrote:What the hell were they rapping single lines for, anyway? Weren't they canyoneering and doing pull downs?

Canyoneering rappels are typically done on a single line, with a thin tag line for retrieval.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/biner-blocks-pull-cords-and-all-that-stuff/

The dude let go of the rope..... to stop his face from planting into the stone.

Pretty dumb

Fiona Dunne wrote:> Is it just me, or did he thread the rope through the ATC funny, using both holes for one rope? Time 1:06

wouldnt that only be possible if he threaded the rope through it? no way to pass a bite through like that.

It does look odd, but i think its more likely that it just looks kind of like that than he actually threaded the end of the rope through it like that (would either have to pull the entire length of the rope through or do it at the top of the rope before securing it to the anchor).

thoughts?

bearbreeder wrote: the PAS is no safer than a nylon sling with 2 overhand knots ... and in fact may be theoretically more dangerous if you believe in the deadly dyneema thing

The PAS is a scourge on trad climbing. It's something guides like, and thus guided clients who eventually flee the nest will take into the real world.

What is wrong with using the rope? What is wrong with that 4ft sling you are most likely carrying. Why do you need a specialized piece of gear that serves no other purpose but seems to be a clusterfuck when it's not being used.

The worst part about the PAS is it seems to proliferate like cancer cells. I had one for a few months, and thankfully had to cut it. Gone and never will be replaced.

J. Serpico wrote: What is wrong with using the rope?

What if you're out of rope? Ever link pitches? Ever climb a 60m (or 70m)? Ever practice self rescue techniques? Tell me about escaping a belay while anchored with your rope vs. anchored with something independent, i.e. a sling or PAS.

J. Serpico wrote:What is wrong with that 4ft sling you are most likely carrying.

Probably that you intended to use it as a part of the rack to clip lead protection, if you were doing good rack planning. Sucks to be placing pro at the top of a pitch and find yourself a sling short because your buddy decided to anchor with "that 4ft sling you are most likely carrying".

J. Serpico wrote:Why do you need a specialized piece of gear that serves no other purpose but seems to be a clusterfuck when it's not being used.

If it seems to make a mess when you're not using it, I would suspect your own racking methods are to blame. It's really not hard to keep it out of the way with a little forethought.

George Bracksieck wrote:bb wrote: "the PAS is no safer than a nylon sling with 2 overhand knots ... and in fact may be theoretically more dangerous if you believe in the deadly dyneema thing" I'm looking at my Metolius PAS, and the material appears to be about 70% nylon and 30% Spectra (Dyneema). While Dyneema has a lower melting point than nylon, I've seen nylon melt due to friction with other nylon. Unless you make a friction hitch out of a PAS, I have a hard time seeing how its 30% Dyneema could be problem. If you think it's ok to shock-load your nylon sling, think again. A nylon sling DOESN'T stretch noticeably, and knots weaken it. I agree with Matt that shock-loading a Spectra (Dyneema) daisy may melt it, but no one should be shock-loading a nylon daisy or sling, because of the impact it may create on the body and the anchor.

The old PAS breaks in a factor ~1.25 fall in tests

It may have nylon but the dyneema portiob doesnt allow much stretch

Does this matter? ... That depends on your point of view ... There have been fatalities with dyneema slings used as lanyards, which is why beal made the dynaconnect lanyard

Personally im not too worried, but if we are going all out on "safety" on this thread, then yr better off using a nylon sling, or a beal dynamic lanyard, than a PAS

Nick Stayner wrote: What if you're out of rope? Ever link pitches? Ever climb a 60m (or 70m)?

A clove hitch only takes like 6 inches of rope. So if you pull really hard you can pull enough rope to make the hitch.
Still doesn't work? Attach yourself with a sling. No slings i hear you say? Have any cams left? There are plenty of slings on them. What no cams? stick a biner on each side of a nut and bam, a quick draw. You have arrive at the belay without anything?... i guess you are screwed, time to down climb

Nick Stayner wrote:Ever practice self rescue techniques? Tell me about escaping a belay while anchored with your rope vs. anchored with something independent, i.e. a sling or PAS.

go indirect and unitie... its just one more step. if you are self rescuing this step is one of the least complicated things ahead of you.

I think the whole argument is now beyond silly. Anyone who knows anything can manage with one or without one. Having an installed tether is a convenience that some people find helpful and others feel a powerful urge to disparage. The world is a whacky place.

Just about everyone is totally loaded with gear that isn't "necessary." As I mentioned, there isn't a single sewn item in the modern climber's pile of stuff than couldn't be replaced with something knotted. Just take a deep breath and relax fer chrissake, because unless you are Rich Romano you too are using stuff that could be dispensed with.

A very small part of the silliness is that "PAS" has, like "nylon" itself, become a generic term, so people using it may not be referring to the Metolius product. In that regard we might note that the Sterling Chain Reactor is a "PAS" that is made of nylon and withstands three factor-2 falls in testing.