De-greasing a foothold, is it ok?

In a popular spot in my locale, there are some very prominent and very integral foot holds, and even some hand holds that are almost useless because of decades of shoe-rubber.

Are there any reported methods of degreasing rubber off a foothold that is considered 'okay'?

I was thinking of taking a wirebrush and hitting a step-like foothold to see if I could make it useful again, I don't think a wirebrush can do any serious damage to granite, perhaps take a few loose grains off.

What do you think?

tripmind wrote:In a popular spot in my locale, there are some very prominent and very integral foot holds, and even some hand holds that are almost useless because of decades of shoe-rubber. Are there any reported methods of degreasing rubber off a foothold that is considered 'okay'? I was thinking of taking a wirebrush and hitting a step-like foothold to see if I could make it useful again, I don't think a wirebrush can do any serious damage to granite, perhaps take a few loose grains off. What do you think?

I dont think a wirebrush will be that effective. A petrologist told me that the reason why they dont want you touching stalagmites and cave walls in cave tours is the oil residue from your skin, combined with abrasive substances, permanently smooths the limestone in the cave, and there is no solution to restoring it. It seems what happens on climbing routes is pretty much identical to what happens in caves when you touch the stalagmites.

Cave limestone ?= environmentally exposed granite?

I'm not sure that's an equifruit comparison. What does the bouldering crowd normally do? If these spots are low on the route, they may simply be polished holds and not just congested with rubber, oil and junk. Lots of Yosemite routes have this problem on the first pitch... brush off your shoes!

Linnaeus wrote:Cave limestone ?= environmentally exposed granite? I'm not sure that's an equifruit comparison. What does the bouldering crowd normally do? If these spots are low on the route, they may simply be polished holds and not just congested with rubber, oil and junk. Lots of Yosemite routes have this problem on the first pitch... brush off your shoes!

ill just start bringing a carpet patch out, at least before i try to degrease or depolish a hold. I've got one of those metolius pads that has the little scouring pad in the center, but it only does so good

scotchbrite?

Back when I worked in a kitchen we had this stone wall we would clean with sodium hydroxide. The stone wasn't damaged to my recollection, but it has been a long time and I wasn't a climber then. But, I do know that every non-plastic surface was sprayed and wiped down with it. Grease came flying right off.

You can get it in pellets to mix with water, and you can mix a really low ratio so its not that strong. Dump a water bottle on it after. Use your carpet idea as the pad, or maybe drunk the wire brush in the solution. Leaves minimum impact, since its water soluble anything that is left on the rock is left inert(? correct me chemists). If its safe enough for a kitchen its got to be safe enough for granite.

Eliot Augusto wrote:Back when I worked in a kitchen we had this stone wall we would clean with sodium hydroxide.

Interesting ...
Virgin limestone has a very coarse rough high-friction surface. But limestone is a soft rock, so it gets smoothed out quickly in high foot-traffic areas, even polished. A very smart climbing partner of mine suggested that the way the surface originally got so rough was by water interacting with the rock surface forming ...
hydroxide
(maybe calcium hydroxide instead of sodium hydroxide). Hydroxide is the marker of a strong alkaline liquid. Which has the power to erode soft rock. The erosion is uneven, so the surface becomes rough.

So perhaps it is possible to re-roughen limestone by using hydroxide liquid. (or maybe instead of carrying around a potentially dangerous liquid, carry some solid tablets which can be dissolved in (safe) water to form hydroxide at the site of the rock to be re-roughened.

. . (of course I do not know how many thousands of years were required for the original roughening) . .

Ken

P.S. I have another methods used to deal with polishing of limestone on popular walking paths.

D-Roc wrote:scotchbrite?

Magic eraser

Shamwow

With a little chemistry/ molecular biology background, I feel I should weigh in. The discussions so far seem to consider only the rock itself and not the ecosystem surrounding the crag. Sodium hydroxide, or any detergent will undoubtedly wash down the wall and soak into the soil next time it rains. Acetone is volatile enough that it may evaporate and not stay in the environment, but acetone is nasty stuff that could kill lichen, other microorganisms, give the cleaner a nasty headache, and generally stink up the place. These are nasty chemicals that should be kept away from our crags imho.

A wire brush on granite should not harm the granite and is ethical, again imho. If anyone disagrees, I could certainly consider the logic behind said opinion. Other types of rock like sandstone limestone, I would say absolutely should not be wire brushed or scoured with anything abrasive. Water is fair game and may help loosen. The op seems to have good intentions of cleaning up the crag for posterity. If mechanical means cannot remove the rubber, this seems to fall into the category of a place where the grades creep up as the holds are slowly changed by climbing traffic. It happens to some extent at every crag.

First of all, I doubt the holds are becoming slick due to build up of rubber. Chalk and skin oils (and potential interaction products of these two e.g. magnesium carboxylates) are much more likely and more commonly observed than rubber.

Sodium hydroxide (lye) is an aggressive chemical that burns skin. Using a dilute solution that will evaporate would leave a small lye residue behind; not what I would want to be putting my fingers on.

Last time this topic came up, someone mentioned that if you are going to use a wire brush - if you are, and this should be a last resort - not to use a brass bristle brush. Brass metal will be deposited on the rock surface making it slick.

Whatever you do, tread lightly.

tripmind wrote:In a popular spot in my locale, there are some very prominent and very integral foot holds, and even some hand holds that are almost useless because of decades of shoe-rubber. Are there any reported methods of degreasing rubber off a foothold that is considered 'okay'?

This is a rather complex topic and none of the responses here fully address it. Different types of rock must be treated differently; something that is safe to do to granite will destroy limestone.

"Degreasing rubber" doesn't make any sense, and neither do several other suggestions here. A definition of terms is in order. A hold can have a combination of problems.

"Greasy": Usually caused by chalk saturated with skin-oils and humidity. Can be mitigated by brushing off excess chalk and/or waiting for dry conditions.

"Black foothold": particles of rubber fill-in the texture of the hold making it look black and reduces friction by preventing the rock's texture from biting as deeply into both skin and sole.

"Polish": The movement of shoes while weighted breaks off the tiny sharp points of the texture. Dirt on shoes acts as a polishing compound just like sandpaper.

On softer rocks wire-brushing just smooths the texture further, and should never be used on sandstone or limestone. It might be okay on granite.

Limestone is soft and chemically reactive. It dissolves in rain water (goutte d'eau, stalactites) and even very mild acids. It polishes easily, often to a golden "buttery" sheen.

By comparison granite is very hard and chemically inert. If often comes pre-polished by glaciers (Yosemite). Often footholds are made of feldspar crystals which stick out and, by nature, have very little texture to start with (Vedauwoo). Often the texture is caused by wind-blown sand (J-Tree, Vedauwoo) and not water; water has a tendency to polish (Fremont). Even polished, granite usually has more friction than limestone.

And of course, within the spectrum of rock between limestone and granite, each one is different. Even within a family there are significant differences; limestones differ widely, as do sandstones, granites, etc.

So the answer to the OP's question... as so often is true, is: It Depends. You asked "Is it okay?" so you know there could be issues.

Most of the time very little can be done without worsening the problem. But if you want to try you must first decide what is the root of the slipperiness. In the case of "prominent" feldspar crystals, you may find the holds were ALWAYS slippery.

If the sharp, thin edge has broken off, mechanical techniques may restore it, but you may also suffer the slings and arrows of other climbers.

If you decide to improve the hold, first TEST your approach (esp. chemicals) on some inconspicuous rock to develop skills and to see what happens. THEN poll MP for comments again.

Can't tell if the OP is just new or a troll. It's also hard to tell whether the issue complained of is legitimate or whether he or she is trying to compensate for a lack of strength and/or technique by altering the rock. You guys could be advising some dude to chemically treat some VOs that no one else has an issue with.

The Brits have climbed on really polished limestone for decades, and look how strong they are. I climbed at Stoney Middleton probably thirty years ago, and it was polished then. Haven't heard of any Brits chemically treating those climbs. If it's limestone, it's probably just polished, not just greasy. Just deal with it. In my experience, everytime I've seen people mess with holds--wirebrushing, cleaning, gluing or other more subtle forms of enhancement--it just ends up messing up the hold worse and speeds up the breaking process.

Ben Moon used to make a point of putting wood holds on his woodie (duh) because it was slicked and he had to get real strong to use them. Look at the stuff he's crushed.