Mountain Project Logo

Side by side comparison of Dragon Cams and Camalots.

Original Post
Sam Keller · · Mallorca, ES · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 30

Gear Review: DMM Dragon Cams and BD Camalots.

Hello there!

I am a full time climber who racks up with singles of 1-5 DMM Dragon Cams and singles of .5-4 Black Diamond Camalots (plus a set of Metolius TCUs for smaller sizes). I have been doing this for the last year and thus have an interesting perspective on the strengths and weaknesses of both cams. Here is a picture ( i.imgur.com/g0oEdsP.jpg )

This is a side by side comparison of the two.

General Ratings:

Dragon Cams 4/5
Camalots 4/5

Categories:

Ease of placement.

Dragon Cams 5/5
Camalots 4/5

This is my favorite part of the Dragon Cam. This is why I ended up racking the Dragons on my right, and using them as my workhorse cam. Features that I love are the rumbled cam lobes and the shorter stem. The rumbled cam lobes have caught a lot of flack from climbers because they create less surface contact with the rock. My question is, is this a difference that makes a difference? I climb a lot on sandstone, and have taken a 30 foot whipper onto a #1 (.5 C4) Dragon, the rock held just fine. I have taken falls on all my Dragons in sandstone. My conclusion is that the smaller surface area does not make a difference. The advantage to the rumbled cam lobes does make a difference though. They excel in irregular placements.

The other advantage of the Dragon is the shorter stem. The Dragon excels in shallow placements. When combined with the extendable sling the Dragon far out performs the C4. I have no problem with C4’s. They are an awesome cam, but the Dragon beats them due to minor tweaking in the engineering.

Durability

Dragon Cams 3/5
Camalots 5/5

I used my Dragons as my workhorse cam for a year. The cams held up great, but within 9 months the sling on my #2 (.75 c4) became compromised and I had to replace the sling imgur.com/8pQ3zjp. I am now a year in, and all of my Dragons are looking like they will need to be reslung soon m.imgur.com/wfDFgOo. Because of this I have decided to start using the Camalots as my workhorse cam and the Dragons as my backup/alpine cam of choice. The nylon sling on the Camalots is the bees knees. They took a years worth of abuse like a champ, I wont need to replace the slings for a long time. Thus, Camalots are the clear winner in durability.

Quality of Craftmanship:

Dragon Cams 5/5
Camalots 5/5

Both of these cams are top quality pieces of machinery. They have great action, little slop, and are both made with top quality materials. I appreciate the hot forging process of DMM. It gives them much more freedom in the design of the cam, and it shows up in the final process. Black Diamond machines all of their cams, which is cool too, but not as cool as the Dragons.

Weight:

Dragon Cams 5/5
Camalots 4/5

The actual weight difference between Dragons and Camalots is tiny. The difference between the .5-4 sizes (1-6 Dragon) is like 21 grams or something tiny. They are both pretty light. The advantage of the Dragon comes in the alpine or multipitch climbs. That extendable sling is actually pretty dang handy. I take less slings with me and this equals less weight. Pretty awesome actually :) C4’s are cool, and pretty light too, but that extendable sling is the bees knees even if it’s not that durable.

Amount of crap talking you will get for having them on your rack:

Dragon Cam 5/5 (in Indian Creek)
Camalots 1/5

People just love talking smack about Dragon Cams. Especially people who have never done anything except for look at them online or hold one in a store. I have heard some dumb things said about the hot forging not being strong enough, the craftmanship being shoddy, the surface area on the cam lobes being dangerous.... I could go on. Hate on the Dragons is strong.

Verdict:

I love both cams for their engineering, design, and quality of materials. Going forward I will use my Camalots as my workhorse cam, and my Dragons as my specialty cam in difficult placements and in the alpine where their extendable sling comes in very handy.
I think that they complement each other well. I love the 1 mil difference in the range. Makes for a slight variation in the rack that racking with doubles of one brand doesn’t get.

Kai Larson · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 436

I also own and use both. Count me as a Dragon fan. Dragons are my primary, and C4's are my 2nd set.

Love the extendable slings, and I also find the Dragons easier to place when wearing gloves.

I haven't had wear issues on my slings yet, but that probably just means that I need to get out climbing more than I do.

Mike Marmar · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 67
Sam Keller wrote:Ethics: I am predisposed to liking DMM more than Black Diamond. One is a grassroots climbing company that makes top quality climbing gear at a local factory in Wales while the other is a major corporate conglomerate that makes all their gear at sweatshop factories in China. If you are into ethical gear then DMM is the obvious choice. It is a little more expensive, but more ethical and grassroots.
Disclaimer: I am good friends with a few BD employees.

I will not argue that DMM is a smaller company with less of a global presence than BD (I guess that makes them more grassroots...although I'm not entirely sure what that means). I also think DMM makes wonderful products. That said, BD absolutely does not "make all their gear at sweatshop factories in China". I'm not quite sure how this misconception came about. BD forges/stamps/cuts all the climbing gear components here in SLC. The only parts of manufacturing that occur in China are anodization and assembly.

Most importantly, BD owns the factory in Zhuhai where this is done. They directly employ everyone there, pay fair wages, and treat the employees no differently than BD employees in SLC, or their Europe office.
Sam Keller · · Mallorca, ES · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 30

Thanks Mike. I didn't know that about the factory process. Been looking through Internet posts on the subject and it seems you are right. I will edit my original post.

Mike Marmar · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 67

Thank you. I've seen this idea pop up a few times and it irks me. I had to take the opportunity to set the record straight =).

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

I'll add a vote for the DMM Dragons. I also have a full set of the Demons. Same stem and sling, but a single axle design.

The only drawback that I have found is you need to pay attention to extending the sling. Pull the tacked side. This can be a PITA when first using them, not paying attention, and all pumped out.

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60

I love my DMM biners and nuts. I think that they missed the boat with the Dragon and that the the C4 is a better piece.

I am not in the market for any more cams, but if I were, I would absolutely buy Totem. The Totem Cam is by far the best cam on the market. Period. No doubt about it. I was a doubter until I tried them. After one pitch, I got it. Totem is the next step forward in the evolution of the cam.

Sam Keller · · Mallorca, ES · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 30

Yeah, the totems look pretty sweet. As for evolution in cams the dragons are definetly not that. They seem to be more of a refinement of the existing standard.

I can't wait to try out some totems though :)

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60

I don't think that you will be disappointed. The Totems have an amazing design, beautiful craftsmanship (like DMM) and are incredibly functional. I have not been this impressed with a pice of gear in years. They are simply spectacular.

Spencer BB · · Pasadena, CA · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 23

Hey, For those of you out there who like the dragon cam's, how do you transition from holding the sling to holding the trigger/pommel when you are placing the cam. I have a bunch of C4's and one dragon cam (a #6) and seem to struggle more re-positioning it in my hand without the thumb loop.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

SpencerB,

I unclip the cam and either bite with my teeth and grab how I want, or I hold the carabiner with my thumb and index and flip the cam to my other fingers. Not a big deal.

Sam Keller · · Mallorca, ES · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 30

Spencer, I have pretty big hands, so have never really had this problem. I just grab it off my gear loops with one hand, and slide my hand down to the base of the stem. It intuitively fits in my hand. I actually like the thumb tack, which after hating the old C4 thumb tack, really suprised me. It's the advantage that hot forging brings to the table.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

Sam Keller,

Are you positioning the cam in your hand before you unclip it from your harness? I have big hands and still have to adjust it after unclipping.

Sam Keller · · Mallorca, ES · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 30

No. I just unclip it and slide my hand into place. It's hard to explain, but it's a very intuitive feeling for me.

I imagine that you do have big hands if the size of your feet is any judge.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

Ha, went home, put on my harness, racked the cams as usual, grabbed low on stem, pulled up and unclipped from harness with ease.

Thank you, Sam, for making me rethink my technique. I find this a bit more easy. Once unclipped from the harness the cam is perfectly in position in my hand.

Yes, everything is in proportion, but it is damn difficult to fit shoes. :)

Colin OBrien · · Maine · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 155

This was posted on another forum, and I thought I'd include a response here. Good stuff overall, but I wanted to raise a few issues:

This is a good review, but you did leave out one aspect of the C4 - the thumb loops. Particularly if aiding, they make a huge different. I find them way easier to place in general with the thumb loops, but they also make it easier for aiding. The wide loops are easier to clip multiple beaners to, and move your clip point a few inches up. Spread out over the many, many pieces you put in on an aid pitch, you get feet higher and use less gear.

You're off on the ethics piece, though. BD does a good job of sourcing well in china. Every company uses chinese materials. Where does DMM get their slings? And we don't live in a world where ALL Chinese manufacturing is crap or is unethical. China has the infrastructure, and is beginning to catch up ethically. BD has done a good job of managing those ethics, while playing a strong role in local communities.

DMM still sources products (slings) from China/abroad. Same goes for Metolious, who uses all american made metal equipment. The reality is that China and Asia at large have many products that are no longer made in America for many reasons. Some are environmental, but many are related to cost. And increasingly, it's because China has the production infrastructure (hardware, not just human resources) to create high-tech equipment. Quality companies have moved production (Osprey springs to mind) overseas because it can be done ethically and at a much cheaper price. Osprey could have either spent ridiculous amounts of money building a factory, or worked with existing factories in Vietnam to do the work at their standards. We are starting to see a lot of American companies doing the same thing.

Now, I'm not saying that BD is 100% ethical by any means. Disclosure is a good thing, and companies like Patagonia have done a good job of disclosing certain processes. But don't mistake some disclosures for total disclosure. The same company that ethically sources down from European geese might buy zippers from dubious sources, or lower end polyester products for their casual lines at cut rate prices.

Lastly, I leave you with this selection from the BD Policy on Sustainability:

"Historically, we relied on this Toolkit and our Vendor Code of Conduct to carry out routine social compliance audits of our partners. This has since given way to our current model of unannounced, third-party social audits to check in and review how our partners are performing. These professional audits provide a snapshot of a factory's working conditions, management systems and compliance with local and international labor laws. We use the audit reports to highlight areas for improvement and to create Corrective Action Plans. Like the rest of us, our partners are not perfect; these audits provide specific direction for continuous progress."

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

- the dragons extendible slings, should they get worn out, can be replaced with 5mm tech cord tied in the same extendible configuration finished with a triple fishermans ... i consider this an advantage as it saves shipping cams in and waiting for a resling should you need em right away

- the dragons have less surface contacting the rock than the camalots in some of the sizes, if you climb sandstone this might be a consideration

- some dragon sizes have a narrower headwidth than the camalots

- the dragons have the classic 13.75 cam angle vs. the 14.5 cam angle for the camalots ... this may be a consideration on limestone

- the dragons may have a slightly greater chance of levering out of certain weird placements, as the BD thumbloop itself acts as part of a flexible stem over edges, while the dragon stem doesnt

- the dragons are on average 20$ more expensive at MEC

- the extendible slings on the dragons saves on draws IME on multi ... i bring up a few less draws with em

- the sling allows you to extend a placement you might normally not waste a quickdraw on ... weve all seen the threads where "well placed cams" in vertical cracks supposedly walked and failed

- the sling is dyneema and more flexible than the BD nylon one ... extended or not IME it walks less because of it

- on certain placements the extendible sling allows you not to load the biner over an edge or crack ... with BDs you have no choice (you can put a draw on it but the biner will still be on the edge in some cases)

- the sling has one less point of failure vs extending it with a draw (unless you take the racking biner and oppose it on the sling as well)

- on vertical cracks the sling takes up less of your foot jam vs a camalot+draw .. and is easier to step on or nudge out of the way ... and is less likely to get stuck in the crack

- on hard redpoints i carry my dragons pre-extended if i know the gear .. or if theres a stance and i know ill pump in a dragon in a few moves ill extend it beforehand

- to unextend a dragon while cleaning simply clip the dragon to your gear sling/loop and then reclip one of the strands ... this prevent dropping while unextending them

basically either the camalots or dragons work fine ... the question is how much do you extend your placements normally???

if you extend most cams with a short draw then the dragon can save you some weight, especially on multi

if you dont or extend them long all the time, theres no real advatange

most my partners who have used my dragons want a set, several have went out and bought some

i own and use dragons, camalots, link cams, totems, TCUs/Powercams, aliens, zeros, rock empire, etc ... the dragons for the last 3 years extensively and the current gen camalots before and concurrent with em

my goto cams are always the dragons ... and the doubles usually the link cams, totems or aliens depending on the route

;)

length comparison

headwith and surface area, red dragon vs camalot

headwith and surface area, purple dragon vs camalot

Wyatt H · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 6

That's the best and most impartial comparison I've seen. Thanks Bearbreeder.

I wonder how much the lobe thickness/surface contact area really makes a difference.

Paolo Speirn · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 10

Can anyone speak to the usability of the pommel vs. thumbloop in the larger sizes (blue and grey)?

My blue camalot (pre-thumbloop) is quite a bit wobblier to place than the blue C4....

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Paolo Speirn wrote:Can anyone speak to the usability of the pommel vs. thumbloop in the larger sizes (blue and grey)? My blue camalot (pre-thumbloop) is quite a bit wobblier to place than the blue C4....
the dragons have an indentation on the stem for the thumb that makes it easier to hold than the old camalots, friends, linkcams

however the only real way to tell is to go into a store and try em both ... or find a partner with em

;)
Andrew Williams · · Concord, NH · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 625

I have the Dragons, #2-green through the #6-Grey. I have to say the are great. I wondered about how they would be to handle compared to C4's and I think they handle better, IMO. The pommel seems to hold the thumb very nicely.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Climbing Gear Reviews
Post a Reply to "Side by side comparison of Dragon Cams and Cama…"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.