Ice tools
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I'm very new to vertical ice climbing, and was curious about the difference in ice tools, mostly why/when would one want to use say BD Cobras vs BD Fusions? |
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Up front, this is an easy question, so I'm sure you'll get a ton of answers. |
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Regarding adze vs. hammer, the first question is whether you'll be climbing in an alpine setting where an adze would be useful. |
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Would using the Fusion style tools and carrying a piton hammer be more practical? |
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William Kramer wrote:Would using the Fusion style tools and carrying a piton hammer be more practical? Or are those style of tools too aggressive for starting out?Up to you. You can certainly go with a more mixed-style tool from the start, but it might take away some from the easy/fun factor on straight ice routes. The swing is pretty different. I think a lot of folks might say to just buy Nomics now and save yourself from upgrading in a year or two years -- but they already know how to swing a tool and probably have no problem taking Nomics on waterfall ice. With BD and Trango (someone else will have to chime in for Petzl) you could always buy the mixed-style tools and switch out the picks (to Laser picks on the BD). |
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What is the difference between the B and the T picks? From what I have read it's 2 degrees in the angle and thickness, but what is the real world difference? |
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Ideally, it's a tradeoff between durability and ice displacement. I actually prefer my picks to be thinner than most B picks, but I'm lighter than most climbers. |
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William Kramer wrote:What is the difference between the B and the T picks? From what I have read it's 2 degrees in the angle and thickness, but what is the real world difference?Yeah, B vs. T should just relate to thickness as far as I know. B picks should displace less ice and, therefore, place in pure ice better. T picks are thicker, therefore more durable. But I'm 185 lbs without winter gear, so I don't think B picks are wise for me if any mixed climbing might happen. I remember hearing Marc Beverly say that he had to get custom, thicker Krukonogi (armor steel) picks for Ice Climbing World Cup competition, because he was breaking the standard dry tooling picks they make. He's in the same weight range as me. More significantly, though, is the angle of the pick. (Not related to the B/T rating, AFAIK.) The angle depends on your intended use. Using the BD example, I believe the Laser (B) and Titan (T) picks have the same "ice" angle. I bent a Laser pick pretty nicely the first time I tried to go mixed climbing with those tools. Switched to Titan picks thereafter. The angle on the standard Fusion picks vs. the Laser/Titan picks is more aggressive, however, which is why I suggested something like a Fusion tool with an ice pick. (Sticking to BD for example's sake.) It looks like BD makes a Fusion specific "ice" pick for the Fusion tools now -- so you could get those and swap them out for ice climbs. Trango Raptors are another mixed-style tool that comes with a standard T pick with an aggressive angle. Similar to BD, you can buy "ice" picks to swap in. Nomics come with a more ice friendly pick and you can buy a more aggressive dry tooling pick. I doubt either of these setups will be as easy in ice as a Cobra or Quark or X-All Mountain, though, even with the "ice" picks. Honestly, though, the borrowing/renting first idea is a good suggestion -- unless you have money to burn. Or buy a used or economical pair of less aggressive tools for starters (Vipers, Quarks, X-All Mountains, Cobras, etc., in order of increasing expense). These are good alpine tools to have in your quiver in any regard. I wouldn't drop the $$$ on Cobras until you're 100% sure you want them. One of the standard criticisms of the Nomics is the lack of a good spike at the bottom for plunging in alpine settings. I think an offset handle probably messes with plunging a bit, too, and that's not limited to the Nomics. |
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Thank you very much for all the info, very helpful. I am definitely going to try to rent/borrow for the season, I don't even have a clue as to what I'm really looking for in swing and feel or comfort, just wanted to go into it somewhat informed of options out there. |
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Grivel has some incredible carbon fiber tools. |
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I recommend trying out as many different types as possible this season from your friends/rentals. tools are a personal preference towards weight, swing, handle, distribution, etc. |
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Your best bet is to come down to the Ouray Ice Festival (or the Cody Ice Festival in WY) which are both early winter and you can demo just about every single ice tool on the US market at no cost whatsoever. That's an easy way to learn what you like and don't like. |
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Also, great discussion on ice tools here: |
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great info by Jon H |
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Thanks for those posts, and info on Cody and Ouray. How late into spring is the ice good to climb in Ouray? |
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Pitons = pins |
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Sweet, thank you |
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I climbed at the Ouray Ice Park Feb 15th and it was melting out, but the park didn't close until March 30th, not sure how good of ice it was for March |
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^^^The water levels in the backcountry have very little to do with the Park conditions. It all depends on the temp cycles during the day and overnight. It can get up to 50s during the day any month of the winter, it's no problem. The difference is the overnight temperatures. As long as it consistently drops below freezing overnight and as long as the sprinklers are going, the ice will be forming. The thing to watch out later in the season (March) is the overnight lows. If it's too warm for a long stretch, then it's kaput. Usually you can still climb well into the end of March or even early April at the south end of the Park where ice is lower angle (fatter so it feeds off itself or the snowmelt up above, plus it doesn't just fall off like the steeper icicles). Way less crowded too. |
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Good points doligo, thanks |