Rappel Back-ups

Andrew L wrote: Not that it helps now, but you could have solved this by just wrapping the rope around your leg a few times.

I have done that a couple of times but had slippage and unraveling issues.

Just so everyone can have a chuckle at the antics of a newbie I even tried tying an overhand and clipping it to my belay loop. It sure stopped me. Then I had to figure some way of getting that knot out of my ATC so I could continue.

Patrick Shyvers wrote: Any particular reason? My understanding is that climbers have been scared off from that strategy ever since one guy's swami belt slid up to his armpits (leaving him unable to free the friction hitch up high, so he died). But we don't use swami belts anymore. So to me it seems like that is not much of a risk anymore. There are downsides, such as it is slightly harder to free after it locks, but that can be dealt with and is hardly cringe-worthy. I find the boot-wrap is a quick and easy way to unweight devices above my ATC. Putting the hitch below the ATC has its downsides as well.

For me, the most significant downer for above the device is a panic grip that pulls it down with me. At the same time, a hitch below a mis-threaded rap device has the same drawback - although it might be too low to likely be gripped that way.

Edit: Full disclosure, my current preferred is above the device, if I use one.

Regarding the rappel video some folks have posted:

Isn't the root cause of this incident that the more experienced canyoneer failed to give a fireman's belay to his inexperienced partner, and instead moved away to film the rappel? That is my recollection of an analysis of the incident. Further, my understanding is that rappel back-ups are generally NOT used in Class C (i.e. swift water) canyon rappels due to risk of getting the hitch stuck and drowning. Any of you more-experienced canyon folks want to chime in?

Dallas R wrote: I have done that [leg wraps] a couple of times but had slippage and unraveling issues. Just so everyone can have a chuckle at the antics of a newbie I even tried tying an overhand and clipping it to my belay loop. It sure stopped me. Then I had to figure some way of getting that knot out of my ATC so I could continue.

Leg wraps are simple and for short stops are really the best way to anchor a rappel rope. The wraps do not slip if you go around enough times. Three may be enough but I usually do five. The unraveling is because gravity tends to pull the wraps down off your leg. After wrapping, put the rappel rope over the opposite shoulder and the unraveling problem is eliminated. Or, you can just clip the rappel rope to a harness loop. Anything that creates a pulley so that gravity pulls up rather than down on the wraps.

Any self-rescue book will tell you how to tie off a belay plate for belayer escape. I prefer the British method, as illustrated here: ukclimbing.com/articles/pag… The same technique works for tying off a rappel, and provides a releasable set-up rather than then the overhand, which just creates problems, possibly quite vexing ones if you try that when free-hanging. But really, there are things that can go wrong with such tie-offs, one worry being fumbling the rope while doing it and losing control of the rappel, and so the leg wraps are preferable for both their simplicity and utter fool-proofness.

The only time I think tying off the plate is better is if, for some reason, you are going to be hanging in place for a long time. Then the wraps keep tightening and after a while become uncomfortable.

I coulda sworn that one of those posted in-text ads said "rabies available at REI"

I cow-tail and third-hand, it works for me when I feel the need for it. I moved away from using those goddamned stopper knots

Steve Levin wrote:Regarding the rappel video some folks have posted: Isn't the root cause of this incident that the more experienced canyoneer failed to give a fireman's belay to his inexperienced partner, and instead moved away to film the rappel?

Sure, the incident could have been prevented if there had been a fireman's belay. And the rappeller is fortunate to have been wearing gloves, otherwise there'd be no skin left on his palms. But the root cause is that the rappeller let go with the brake hand, perhaps trying to counterbalance a tendency to swing back into the stream, and the autoblock was improperly installed.

One of the hidden problems with autoblocks (but please don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against them) is that they promote the notion that you can let go of the brake hand at any time. The old-timers like me who learned before autoblocks had it drilled into them that they could never under any circumstances release the brake hand, and that inculcated habits which persist even if we are using autoblocks---we would never let go of the brake hand they way that rappeller did, no matter how bad a swing was occurring. Autoblocks make it possible to be a lot more casual about technique, and that has some potentially serious pitfalls.

As for improper installation, I feel that I see a lot of rappellers using autoblocks that appear to me to be too loose to function in an emergency. I also see quite a few people struggling to get down because the autoblock is too tight. It appears that there may be a relatively narrow range in which the autoblock is not an impediment to progress but will still function correctly when called upon, but these are just impressions; I have no idea whether the observations are accurate or not. What is beyond contention is that complacency about letting go of the brake hand combined with an autoblock that may not function properly is a nasty combination, and the education of climbers ought to emphasize the dangers as well as the advantages of such back-ups and not promote them as a fool-proof panacea for preventing rappel accidents.

ViperScale wrote: Thanks for letting me know i didn't know you had to get quick draws on the anchors for it to be a send... i thought you just had to get to them. Let me add that to my list of things i don't care about. Along with that is there a certain hold we should be taping up there next to the anchors as a requirement for finishing a route? maybe we can only clip anchors from waist level or below so if you clip from a lower hold it doesn't count? And this is why i stay away from sport climbing because of the gym rats like you who don't understand what climbing is. Give me some trad routes out in the middle of nowhere with noone around for miles any day. PS: Don't forget to go tell alex that none of the sends count cause he didn't clip draws? And just cause i don't know if you don't set up a belay point at the proper spot on trad anchors does it not count either? I am pretty sure that last big project chris sharma did doesn't count either cause he missed cliping a few draws on the way up, you should have told him to cut the ones he wasn't going to use before he sent it.

That makes me laugh and laugh. "Gym Rat" hahah. Unlikely, let me know where your trad project is and I'll send it on stoppers once you develop a sense of humor/irony.

Also, if you use a personal anchor system from Metolius or any other company, I find you moronic because you're spending money on something propagated by a marketing strategy and little else, if you actually want to climb harder in the mountains, then don't carry gear that serves only one purpose when you can just as easily accomplish the same task with something more versatile.

The Blueprint Part Dank wrote:Also, if you use a personal anchor system from Metolius or any other company, I find you moronic because you're spending money on something propagated by a marketing strategy and little else, if you actually want to climb harder in the mountains, then don't carry gear that serves only one purpose when you can just as easily accomplish the same task with something more versatile.

You appear completely clueless thought if you think a PAS or any other anchor chain has anything to do with climbing hard. Alot of us out there don't care about climbing hard we just like the adventure and just because you think 0.01 oz of wt will weigh you don't and not allow you to send something... the rest of us climb for fun and it makes no difference.

PS: Anyone who talks trash to someone for their choice (when the choice isn't going to hurt them) is a tool.

buying gear you already have is quite toolish but hey this is what makes the human world go round and round isnt it?

MJMobes wrote:buying gear you already have is quite toolish but hey this is what makes the human world go round and round isnt it?

Why do you buy passive gear then? Sure you can make your own but most don't do that do they? Sure you can make your own daisy chain / anchor chain but most don't. I am not 100% on this but I know of cases where people screwed up knots and have fallen to their death but has someone ever clipped a bought chain and fallen to their death from it?

Heck we really only need to buy one thing and that is rope, you can make protection out of rope, you can make a harness out of rope, you can make quick draws out of just rope, you can even descend with only rope and no belay device... so why do you buy anything but rope?

I buy gear because gear is cool.

I have two Metolius PAS slings. The original is hanging in the closet holding my complete rack plus some. It will keep stuff organized, easy to get to, and somewhat compact. It holds everything like a long grapevine.

My second PAS is the new generation and I use it, and I don't. Depends on the situation. Works well for anchoring my hammock (found this out from my last trip) - already ordered another one for the other side. I bet it would work well in the laundry room for hanging clothes on. One loop his other loop her's and so on. I can think of a lot of uses for an already made PAS sling. Some not to be mentioned here.

I have also found they work well for their intended purpose.

I use a presewn sling with a deadly dyneema knot just because this is my preference, but I'm sure I'm judged either way. Gonna die and all, you know.

The thing is, I'm a fool and my money soon parts from me - mostly to savings, bills, and necessities, but I can afford stuff I don't need too.

Come on guys, spend that money, and make the world go around.

What is the count up to now? One on the way, and I need two more. That will give me a total of five PAS slings. Along with all the presewn 120s I have I can't go wrong in asking what the standard is for the local at which I will be climbing. I guess that is the easy solution.

Does that help?

Edit to add:
Forgot to reply about original post. Use a backup or don't, just know what the Hell you are doing and double/triple check yourself. Take your time and think through what you are doing. Don't risk things just to be cool, or do. We are still collecting data to build to the extensive collection of accident and injury reports.

rgold wrote:The old-timers like me who learned before autoblocks had it drilled into them that they could never under any circumstances release the brake hand, and that inculcated habits which persist even if we are using autoblocks---we would never let go of the brake hand they way that rappeller did, no matter how bad a swing was occurring.

I definitely echo concerns about fostering complacency. Complacency is a recurring theme in climbing accidents, and warrants a high amount of concern IMO.

Prussiks (the third-hand of choice in my circles) just can't be counted on to catch, unless they are being meticulously minded. So until you lock that prussik, you may as well be rap'ing without one.

rgold wrote: Leg wraps are simple and for short stops are really the best way to anchor a rappel rope. The wraps do not slip if you go around enough times. Three may be enough but I usually do five. The unraveling is because gravity tends to pull the wraps down off your leg. After wrapping, put the rappel rope over the opposite shoulder and the unraveling problem is eliminated. Or, you can just clip the rappel rope to a harness loop. Anything that creates a pulley so that gravity pulls up rather than down on the wraps. Any self-rescue book will tell you how to tie off a belay plate for belayer escape. I prefer the British method, as illustrated here: ukclimbing.com/articles/pag… The same technique works for tying off a rappel, and provides a releasable set-up rather than then the overhand, which just creates problems, possibly quite vexing ones if you try that when free-hanging. But really, there are things that can go wrong with such tie-offs, one worry being fumbling the rope while doing it and losing control of the rappel, and so the leg wraps are preferable for both their simplicity and utter fool-proofness. The only time I think tying off the plate is better is if, for some reason, you are going to be hanging in place for a long time. Then the wraps keep tightening and after a while become uncomfortable.

this ...

there is nothing wrong with using a backup providing its not used to cover up more serious errors in technique

just like you would never give a grigri to someone who has poor belay braking skills ... a person should never use a rap backup to cover up poor brake hand control

and i am one who firmly believes that grigri and other such devices provide a greater safety margin when used properly ... same with backups

the failure in the video wasnt a failure to provide a firemans (you WILL rap when there is nobody to provide a firemans at times) ... but a failure to fully test the system including the autoblock under weight

i see this quite a bit ... someone will setup a rap, test the rap with body weight, but not test the friction knot under the device to insure the correct tension and length

which is the problem ... if you are going to depend on the backup as your single point of failure (going hands free),test that backup !!!

as to tying off a rap ...

- wrap high around the thigh three times and either flip the rope over your body onto the other side, or even better tie a quick overhand/fig8 and clip it to something

- the brit biner block method has a shortcoming as a tie off on rap ... the weight of the rope below can make it harder to do with double strands (and you need a large biner with thick fuzzy ropes) and can also pull the bight loose ... if you do use it tie it off with an inline overhand on the rope

- a slip knot below the device also works, youll need to tie it off with an inline overhand as well as the weight of the rope can pull it apart ... also a loaded slip knot is a bit harder to release than the above methods ... it is however a good catastrophe knot when going over the edge on the rap

- even with a friction knot ... ill always do the 3 leg wrap method when going hands free ... same with a grigri or smart on rap ... the incident i posted and video shows why

as to below or above

- unless you are planning to do a knot pass or re-ascend the rope, below is generally considered to be superior

- the friction knot is loaded less, requiring less effort to release

- both hands are kept below the device, which is good practice

- in a panic the natural reaction is to holds the knot down harder ... below the device this simply means the person has a solid brake hand ...

- the main issue with below the device is getting the length wrong, where the device can hit certain hitches like the autoblock or kleimheist that can release with pressure ... this can be controlled with proper testing of the entire system and good brake hand control/practices

- if you do use a prusik above the device, make sure you know how to self rescue as its not unknown for it to get stuck

there have been deaths and rescues where folks got stuck with prusiks above the device

here is one ...

youtube.com/watch?v=cYtYLJz…

here is another ...

Rappelling Death at Pinnacles National Monument

by Jody Langford

Mitchell Haydon (16) from Livermore, California, died on May 15, 1976 while descending the overhanging west face of Tombstone Rock in Pinnacles National Monument. He and his 27 year-old guide R.B. Fischer had reached the top of Tombstone at 12:15 PM. This was their first climb of the day. On their approach to the rock they examined the 130 foot west face and decided to descend that route.

They doubled a 300 foot, 9mm perlon rope for their rappel line. Haydon went first, using a brake-bar system attached to several coils of 1-inch tubular webbing wrapped around his waist. He backed up this system by tying a Prusik knot to the rappel lines above the brake with a 5mm perlon sling which was attached to a second 1-inch tubular webbing wrapped twice around his waist.

Soon after he disappeared from sight below the lip of the overhang he began shouting to Fischer for help. Fischer, because of his location, was unable to hear clearly and couldn't figure out what was wrong. The time was 12:55 PM. A hiker on the trail below heard Haydon shout, "My Prusik is stuck!" The hiker, Hugh Alderson, tried to relay instructions from Fischer to Haydon, but Haydon was unable to loosen the knot and ease the strain on his waist and chest. He shouted down to Alderson to go for help.

Fischer managed to gain the bottom of the rock at 1:10 PM by downclimbing the regular route unprotected. He tried to communicate with Haydon who was now hanging limp and foaming at the mouth. It is fairly certain that Haydon lapsed into unconsciousness by 1:10 PM, 10-15 minutes after getting stuck. Fischer's observations substantiate the coroner's autopsy report which revealed that Haydon died from suffocation caused by aspiration of stomach contents into the lungs. This was due to chest constriction. Another 30 minutes elapsed before rescue efforts managed to lower Haydon to the ground where CPR was unsuccessfully applied.

Analysis

It is not known exactly what caused Haydon's predicament. He may have experienced difficulty passing the lip of the overhang. This is where a trailing Prusik knot usually escapes the climber's grasp and jams. However, Haydon was several feet below this point when he got hung up. There is reason to believe that he may have stopped momentarily to untangle rappel lines below him. The ropes had to be untangled about 15-20 feet above the ground during the rescue effort. If this was the case, then Haydon may have set his Prusik while he accomplished this task. He possibly exhausted himself in strenuous efforts to release the knot and then panicked when the pain became severe and breathing difficult. This was when he called down to the hiker for help.
Several factors contributed to this tragedy:
(1) The use of only a waist loop to support the body weight during the rappel.
(2) The use of a Prusik Knot back-up to safeguard the rappel.
(3) The novice climber's inability to relieve the strain on his waist and chest.
(4) The lack of sufficient equipment by the second climber to effect a quick rescue.

The use of a carabiner friction brake for descending a rappel line is an accepted and proven technique. Keep in mind that this was 1976. Attaching this brake system to a waist loop ONLY is not commonly practiced. This method apparently was preferred by Fischer and he taught it to his students. Its main advantage seems to be that of simplicity - the wrong 'advantage' when safety is key. Most climbers prefer a seat harness to ease the strain on the waist. One has only to hang free a few seconds from a waist loop to realize that the strain on the waist and thoracic region can be very painful and breathing made extremely difficult.

Several techniques have been devised to safeguard against some of the hazards inherent in rappelling. The simple expedient of tying a Prusik knot to the rope and clipping it to the waist loop protects against accidental detachment from the carabiner brake and losing control of the rappel. It also increases security at the end of an unknown rappel.
However, ITS USE IS A QUESTIONABLE PRACTICE. It inhibits freedom of motion. The knot can tighten up out of reach. There is also a real difficulty in negotiating overhangs and the knot is virtually impossible to loosen under tension. Also, it must grip instantly in the event of a free fall or the rope can suffer damage from the extreme friction and heat generated.

Haydon was a novice, having been climbing for only two months. He was not a strong climber according to Fischer and apparently did not exhibit a high degree of natural ability. Although Haydon may have received previous instructions on how to ease the strain on the waistline and release the Prusik Knot, he obviously had difficulty doing this. Tension must be eased within ten minutes or unconsciousness can result. As strength subsides, or if one relaxes momentarily, the waist loops can creep up on both sides of the chest. In this position, it is possible to breath in but difficult to exhale. The increased pressure inside the chest cuts off blood flow back to the heart which in turn restricts the flow of blood to the brain. Because of the restriction around the chest, he couldn't cough or eject the stomach contents out. He breathed in and sucked the stomach contents into his lungs.

Assuming the climber is physically able, there are several simple and relatively easy ways to ease the strain and pressure on the waist or chest when not wearing a seat harness. One is to bend the knee, take the slack line below the waist, wrap several coils around the foot and stand up. A climber can also turn upside down to transfer the weight to his hip, and by hooking a leg behind the tight rope can hold this position for some time.

There are two extremes concerning equipment. Some climbers are swathed in ropes and hardware. Others over-simplify. Somewhere in between is a safe medium where climbers can be expedient but still allow for an emergency and the possible need to improvise. Although many rappels can be accomplished with one rope, it is advisable for the last person down to have an extra rope. This assumes, of course, that the last person down is the most experienced and the one to whom a mishap is less likely to happen.

and finally since were yapping about PASes

there is nothing a $$$$ PAS can do that a 5$ 120cm nylon sling with a few overhands cant do ...

bearbreeder wrote: the brit biner block method has a shortcoming as a tie off on rap ... the weight of the rope below can make it harder to do with double strands (and you need a large biner with thick fuzzy ropes) and can also pull the bight loose

This is very true. I mentioned the tie-off because Dallas R spoke of trying to do that, but I still think leg wraps are the way to go.

bearbreeder wrote:there is nothing a $$$$ PAS can do that a 5$ 120cm nylon sling with a few overhands cant do.

Yup. In my case, as a gainfully employed person, the $$$ are not a big issue. In fact, most if not all sewn gear that could be replaced with knotted gear. BITD we had no sewn gear---swamis, runners, quickdraws, aiders, hammer keeper cords, everything was knotted, and it all worked fine. Nowadays most of us go for the sewn stuff. In some cases, like really thin slings, sewing might be the only way to get good strength, but mostly it is an ultimately minor convenience.

rgold wrote: Sure, the incident could have been prevented if there had been a fireman's belay. And the rappeller is fortunate to have been wearing gloves, otherwise there'd be no skin left on his palms. But the root cause is that the rappeller let go with the brake hand, perhaps trying to counterbalance a tendency to swing back into the stream, and the autoblock was improperly installed.

bearbreeder wrote: the failure in the video wasnt a failure to provide a fireman's ...Rappelling Death at Pinnacles National Monument Mitchell Haydon (16) from Livermore, California, died on May 15, 1976 while descending the overhanging west face of Tombstone Rock in Pinnacles National Monument. He and his 27 year-old guide ....

I see accidents and near-misses as having reasons (i.e. root causes) that they occurred, i.e. I look for the "why", not the "how". That was the point in my earlier post about the canyoneering rap video. When we look at reasons, we can point out fundamental mistakes and perhaps avoid accidents repeating themselves. It is easy to look only so far as the "how" and point blame at techniques, that when applied properly, are sound.

The reason that the canyon rap incident occurred is not because the rappeller let go of their brake hand; it happened because the leader of the group entrusted a beginner with a technique they were not experienced at and failed to provide some kind of safety back-up (in this case, a fireman's).

Likewise, in the accident in the Pinnacles, the reason the accident occurred is because the "guide" let an inexperienced rappeller go first with a third-hand back-up; the "how" was a stuck friction hitch.

In both of these examples, the accidents did not happen because the rappellers were using rap back-ups that did not work or worked too well. These accidents happened because their more-experienced partners made poor decisions: the canyon leader did not provide a fireman's; and the Pinnacles guide sent a client down first with a third-hand back-up instead of belaying them on one strand of their 300-foot rope, which would have been a more sound guiding practice.

Of course we should always correctly apply techniques and use equipment properly, but that needs to be learned in a controlled environment. Once a technique is mastered, then it can be applied in the field. That is Climbing 101. That did not happen in these two examples.

That is my simple point.

I use my autoblock to hold the weight of the rap rope while setting up the rap. It makes loading the two strands into my atc much easier since the autoblock is hold the rope for me. It also gives me a good idea how much friction the autoblock is giving me.

rgold wrote: Yup. In my case, as a gainfully employed person, the $$$ are not a big issue. In fact, most if not all sewn gear that could be replaced with knotted gear. BITD we had no sewn gear---swamis, runners, quickdraws, aiders, hammer keeper cords, everything was knotted, and it all worked fine. Nowadays most of us go for the sewn stuff. In some cases, like really thin slings, sewing might be the only way to get good strength, but mostly it is an ultimately minor convenience.

What gets me is that I've seen bearbreeder post pictures of his rack. Easily $2.5-3k worth of gear. You can drop that kind of money on gear, but an extra $25 on a PAS over a sewn sling is enough to make you balk? Give me a break.

If you don't want to use a PAS then don't, but claiming $$$$ when it's a whopping $30 for one is kind of ridiculous.

Andrew L wrote: What gets me is that I've seen bearbreeder post pictures of his rack. Easily $2.5-3k worth of gear. You can drop that kind of money on gear, but an extra $25 on a PAS over a sewn sling is enough to make you balk? Give me a break. If you don't want to use a PAS then don't, but claiming $$$$ when it's a whopping $30 for one is kind of ridiculous.

the dyneema PAS have absolutely no advantage over a nylon sling used as a "PAS" ... and some of em have a big disadvantage ... its quite hard to use em as a friction knot when you may need it

mammut 8mm phoenix half rope with nylon sling "friction" knot

mammut 8mm phoenix half rope with PAS "friction" knot

its an accessory that costs 5 times as much and has less use

a rack on the other hand has specific pieces of gear that you may well need to protect certain climbs

not to mention its so nice to fondle

back to our regularly scheduled topic now ....

if a PAS is so worthless, why do you own one?