Climbing gyms located in low-income neighborhoods

Would it be sustainable?

I know there is crazy growth of gyms in affluent neighborhoods. And some have programs and/or discounts for "at-risk" kids or those from low-income families. But what about gyms actually located in low-income neighborhoods?

Climbing is still an elitist sport but I'm wondering if a local community organization or non-profit could sustain a basic bouldering gym in the neighborhood they serve. All the attractions of climbing - community, physical health, emotional outlet, diversion, means of rebeling, etc - would be even more beneficial to this audience than those who can afford $1000/year memberships. Granted it wouldn't make anyone a millionaire, but what if that was not the primary goal.

So, could something like this be self-sustaining? Do some already exist? Any opinions, especially from those who are in or have worked with families living in low-income neighborhoods?

What about all the climbing gyms in all the YMCAs did you forget about those?

I've seen rock walls in community centers and YMCA's, but again I'm not aware of any in low-income hoods. Even the ones I've seen are just an add on... nowhere near the vibe of a dedicated climbing gym.

I'm thinking more about a bouldering gym that is not part of a larger facility. The "rebellious" aspect of climbing would probably be a draw (think urban version of camp 4 dirtbags), so it shouldn't be a place where kids will accidentally bump into their mom :)

climbing is not an elitist sport but it does have its demographic. it is not really sustainable for the same reason that ice skating rinks are not sustainable in low income neighborhoods.

To answer your question, AIR, the albany climbing gym is located in a low income neighborhood.

Usually a community organizers cater to the need/wants of the community. To put in a climbing gym in a low income neighborhood would be akin to spending a ton of money on a crotet course.

New Heights in Tulsa, Ok is in a very low income neighborhood. The neighborhood folks never come in. White middle class people from other neighborhoods drive to the gym, then leave and drive home. It's location in the hood has done nothing to introduce the sport to a new demographic.

Somebody a few months ago posted a thread about a low-income climbing gym looking for donated shoes or other items. The gym was specifically made to service at-risk youth, and I believe might have been run as a non-profit. I wish I could find the thread again. It had just started, so I don't know how it has been doing.

mountainproject.com/v/pay-i…

Thx for the great input. This would be an interesting thread to develop further.

matt c. wrote:Usually a community organizers cater to the need/wants of the community. To put in a climbing gym in a low income neighborhood would be akin to spending a ton of money on a crotet course.

I can see how certain sports most definitely wouldn't work in certain hoods... I believe you were trying to say croquet, and as you alluded, figure skating, hockey. But I'm wondering about a basic bouldering gym, not a full-blown climbing gym.

I think the culture of bouldering is very similar to the culture of playing street hoops. It's more about hanging out. There's a cool factor. There's minimal gear needed, if any. You can come alone or with your group. There are lots of things going for it, which is why it's so popular in the "middle class" and I don't see why it wouldn't be popular among low-income kids if they had the opportunity.

C. Archibald wrote:New Heights in Tulsa, Ok is in a very low income neighborhood. The neighborhood folks never come in. White middle class people from other neighborhoods drive to the gym, then leave and drive home. It's location in the hood has done nothing to introduce the sport to a new demographic.

Great point. The first gym I ever went to was Gravity back in the 90's in the south side of Chicago. It was the suburbanites who traveled there, not the locals. But what if the formula was changed?

And thx for the link to the Appalachian gym. I think the main diff is that they are a multi purpose center and the climbing is open only one day a week so the model is different.

Many years ago I was building a climbing wall at a YMCA in a low income area of Boston. Outside I struck up a conversation with a kid. He asked what we were building. I told him and expected a very excited response. He looked at me and said "Oh.... I wish they'd build a playground instead" The lesson I learned, first ask the kids what they would like.

Peter L Scott wrote:Many years ago I was building a climbing wall at a YMCA in a low income area of Boston. Outside I struck up a conversation with a kid. He asked what we were building. I told him and expected a very excited response. He looked at me and said "Oh.... I wish they'd build a playground instead" The lesson I learned, first ask the kids what they would like.

Did it ever get finished? If so, how did it fare?

City Climb is in the middle of the ghetto of New Haven...but actually gets a ton of business from Yale and many other families in NH.

Legion wrote: Did it ever get finished? If so, how did it fare?

We were just the builders. There was a contract, so yes it did get finished. If I remember right it was the Hyde Park YMCA in Boston If you would like to contact them.

I am the guy in the Pay It Forward thread. Our climbing wall is a part of a multi purpose recreation center (basketball, archery, climbing, karate, volleyball, soccer, etc programs). We are in a town of 2500 population so quite small. The Rec Center is owned by the Village and is run solely by volunteers - and it still has to be subsidized by the general fund of the village (heating and cooling costs are very high in building suitable for climbing walls). It is well worth it for us though for what it does for the towns people and especially children. A climbing gym the way you are describing it is going to be a business decision (or it should be). Like any start up it needs to be approached as such. I don't think the lower income will be an issue as much as the other factors involved in the business aspect of running a climbing gym with the goal of making a profit. On it's own it will be very tough I suspect - as a part of a more overall gym/fitness setting it might become much more feasible. Starting a climbing gym because you love it is a very bad reason - it should be approached as a business decision - which it certainly is. With all that said there is money out there for disadvantaged youth programs that you may be able to tap into. Approaching the local town administration could yield property ready to be developed and if developed in conjunction with the administration might subsidize the cost and furnish the liability insurance as a youth program. I don't know if that has any appeal to you though as it's very different than you you described. If I can be of any help feel free to PM me with any questions or just ask them here.

My wife and I have been operating the climbing wall since 1998 - when a few friends and I built it (all volunteers). It was built in 3 phases with Grant Money.

Peter L Scott wrote:Many years ago I was building a climbing wall at a YMCA in a low income area of Boston. Outside I struck up a conversation with a kid. He asked what we were building. I told him and expected a very excited response. He looked at me and said "Oh.... I wish they'd build a playground instead" The lesson I learned, first ask the kids what they would like.

I'd say if the goal is to influence a community to embrace outdoor pursuits that this type of outlook is paramount.

If you are actually planning to try and improve the situation of a poor neighborhood you would do best to become a member of the community and find a way to integrate your vision with their needs.

I would look at organizations like Big City Mountaineers, Outward Bound (particularly the mid-west locations), Girl Ventures, the Boy Scouts, and Bay Area Wilderness Training. I've worked with a number of these programs and I feel that they are at their best when working from a grassroots POV. They are not always perfect (I imagine a lot of you have fun stories to tell about encountering idiotic BSA troops), but they do a lot for introducing the outdoors to communities that lack the means.

If you are serious about looking into this further, and depending on what area you are in, I would do a search for local recreation based non-profits. Work with them for a little bit, see how they interact with the community and find a way to volunteer for them. You'll learn a lot by spending a weekend leading day hikes with inner-city youth.

Legion wrote:Would it be sustainable? I know there is crazy growth of gyms in affluent neighborhoods. And some have programs and/or discounts for "at-risk" kids or those from low-income families. But what about gyms actually located in low-income neighborhoods?

What you seem to be forgetting is that climbing gyms have a massive draw, what neighborhood they are in does not really impact who climbs there. A couple people have mentioned gyms in low income areas that are frequented by the exactly the same crowd as one would expect in an affluent area. Seattle Bouldering Project is another example of this phenomenon - it's in a shitty industrial area off Rainier Avenue, a historically poor and black part of the city, yet because of how great it is, people drive from all over the region to climb there.
If there were climbing gyms in every neighborhood, the way there are fitness gyms in every neighborhood, this would be a valid question, but as the average large city (at least outside the northeast) has only 1-3 climbing gyms (Seattle itself has 3, with 3 more the greater metropolitan area, but no other city in the PNW comes close to that) what neighborhood a gym is located in doesn't have much to do with its sustainability.

Legion wrote:I think the culture of bouldering is very similar to the culture of playing street hoops. It's more about hanging out. There's a cool factor. There's minimal gear needed, if any. You can come alone or with your group. There are lots of things going for it, which is why it's so popular in the "middle class" and I don't see why it wouldn't be popular among low-income kids if they had the opportunity.

This is valid, I just don't see it playing out. Climbing culture is pretty entrenched as a middle-to-upper class white person thing. there has always been a substantial blue-collar contingent in climbing, but this doesn't seem to be the audience the newer gyms are attracting.
while it makes sense on some level for the same crowd that hangs around playing basketball to hang around and boulder, culturally it's a world away. look at the leading climbers - they're a bunch of migrant hippie dirtbags who live out of cars. If homelessness has been a very real threat your entire life, why would this be appealing?

Great feedback! Thx. My OP was vague so let me clarify the vision and it will address most of the comments (btw, this is only at the discovery stage, nowhere near implementation)...

The "product" here is a physical bouldering space. I'm not talking about a guiding service or programs to introduce people to the outdoors. The point is not to make them into outdoor climbers, dirtbag or otherwise, it's to provide a safe place to congregate, especially for those who don't fit in the usual crowd.

It would be a dedicated bouldering gym vs part of a larger center. I think there would be lots of obstacles avoided by being standalone.

I'm asking about "demand" not funding. I attend a church in such a neighborhood and we are VERY active (please hold back any religion-related comments, I'm just providing context). This would be among many other successful programs, so if the demand is there, there are ways to make it happen. And we are definitely plugged into the hood.

Intent is to target local residents. I know there are gyms in "bad" hoods that draw people from elsewhere (btw, I used to live right next to the Seattle Bouldering Project), but they would only be a bonus. I think this would be a very different model.

And Chris Rice, thx for the offer to provide more input... so glad to see orgs like yours doing some amazing work!

Please keep the thoughts coming.

I am confused, are you talking about a for profit business or a non-profit program?

Peter L Scott wrote:I am confused, are you talking about a for profit business or a non-profit program?

Non-profit

I happen to work with the demographic you seek to target. Climbing gyms, no matter where they are located, are expensive for that demographic.

The answer is no. In black low income areas the kids look up to basketball and football players. They don't look up to climbers. They have zero exposure to the sport and their friends are the same way.

The white low income areas have a similiar situation. They just do not have any exposure to it and often view it as a hippy sport.

In both cases if a climbing gym is built in a low income area then the white middle class kids will flock to it. This will make the lower class kids uncomfortable and deter them from climbing. If that doesn't happen then you will have middle class birthday parties at the gym and we all know what happens when a group of young low income kids walks into a place with white middle class parents.

If you want to see more lower class kids get involved in the sport then you have to find a way to spark interest in it. From the looks of it that's not going to happen. Just look at tennis courts downtown. Hell I would even compare it to a library. Just because it's there doesn't mean it will
Spark interest.