Mid Week AMGA SPI Assessment @ the Gunks October 1-2
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Ragged Mountain Guides is offering an AMGA SPI Assessemnt October 1-2 at the Gunks. If you meet the prerequisites and would prefer a mid week assessment, please inquire. I've had a number of inquiries for something like this, and I'm trying to meet minimum enrollments. |
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Here's a quick sampling of some SPI assessments offered and what they charge (this is for the exam, not the course, which is separate). |
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It's an instructor course, not guide. The AMGA distinguishes that. Being a good teacher/instructor has nothing to do with how well you climb. Although it does help to at least look the part (as in not be 50lb. overweight or look like you just bought your rack yesterday). |
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Stephen Fitts wrote: Since when is 350$ "absurdly expensive", not even a weeks worth of pay considering it could launch a guiding career.Obviously one of us has some misconceptions about how much guides get paid. But most of the people I know who guide would consider $350 a lot of money... |
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$350 is "absurdly expensive"? |
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Mountain project should change their name to mountain $$$, it seems some only use it for $$$ and don't really contribute much besides that. |
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That course, no matter what the price is welcomed asset. How many MPers have come across a camp, a Boy Scout troop or a college group that's TRing on an unsafe anchor or doing something else dumb? |
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Good points, Spencer...though I wouldn't say "the AMGA is making it expensive"...believe me, if they could subsidize all the candidates' educations/certifications, they would...but the reality is, it's not yet the industry it is in Europe. While the French, Italian, and other countries' guide associations are heavily subsidized...we simply aren't here in the States. Insurance and permitting are two other significant hurdles here... |
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Here is the rub as it's been explained to me from several guide services on the East Coast: |
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Stagg54 wrote:They go behind their back and whisper in the land owners ears and now suddenly every guided group has to have an AMGA certified person with them.That's quite the conspiracy theory - that the AGMA convinced the land managers to only allow AMGA-certified guide services. Maybe the land managers actually wanted an industry group to provide some standards. I wonder if that's possible? Stagg54 wrote: Personally I do see the value in standards, but who made them the self-appointed standard bearers?Many industries and professions have organizations, associations and industry groups. The AMGA happens to be it for climbing. They are the largest and oldest and most-respected industry group in climbing in the US. |
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Stagg, |
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coppolillo wrote:Good points, Spencer...though I wouldn't say "the AMGA is making it expensive"...believe me, if they could subsidize all the candidates' educations/certifications, they would...but the reality is, it's not yet the industry it is in Europe. While the French, Italian, and other countries' guide associations are heavily subsidized...we simply aren't here in the States. Insurance and permitting are two other significant hurdles here... So yes, it's frickin' expensive to go for your IFMGA...but there are great guide services that help their guides pay tuition and there are limited scholarships at this point, too, from the AMGA. As for standards...well, there's the rub. In Colorado you need some sort of certificate from the state to cut hair in Great Clips. Nothing for "mountain guiding," and believe me--there are some spooky people calling themselves guides out there. There are also plenty of very, very competent guides who haven't done a lick of AMGA training--but I suspect that is changing and in time that will be much less frequent. Further--one often doesn't need pursue certification in all three disciplines (ski, alpine, rock)...a SoCal guide making her living at JTree can blow off the ski/alpine quite happily/successfully...but guides in the PNW or those wishing to travel have every reason to see it through. The wages in Grindelwald, Zermatt, Chamonix are way better than the US, for the most part. Someday it'll be way less expensive to study here...but until then, the cost is indeed a barrier. The misperception, though, is that the AMGA folks are driving around in Escalades or something. Or that somebody, somewhere is raking it in...I live in Boulder and don't see anybody getting rich off the system. A few guides making a living, absolutely...but it ain't easy and it ain't buying a house in town, that's for sure...Although it is true that in some member countries the cost of certification is subsidized, but for many others that is not the case. For example, in New Zealand, it took me 6 years and about 25 thousand dollars in course fees to get IFMGA certified. Many people think that is a lot of money but it really isn't when compared to other forms of education. How far will 25K go at a university and will you have a job at the end of it. When I retired about 12 years ago, I was easily making 60K a year working about 9 months. Although I was certified as a full mountain and ski guide, I specialized in helicopter skiing in Canada and New Zealand. It was easier on the body and the payday was higher. I worked two winters a year. When I moved to the USA I intended to join the AMGA and do some guiding at weekends, volunteer my time on courses, etc., but I got so turned off by the application form and in particular having to produce a list of climbs, etc., that I just gave up. I would have thought that an experienced IFMGA guide offering to help their program would have been welcomed, especially considering that I assessed on a AMGA Ski mountaineering course in California and the Cascades and afterwards wrote a report to the Secretary recommending that they be allowed to join the IFMGA! |
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John McNamee wrote: Although it is true that in some member countries the cost of certification is subsidized, but for many others that is not the case. For example, in New Zealand, it took me 6 years and about 25 thousand dollars in course fees to get IFMGA certified. Many people think that is a lot of money but it really isn't when compared to other forms of education. How far will 25K go at a university and will you have a job at the end of it. When I retired about 12 years ago, I was easily making 60K a year working about 9 months. Although I was certified as a full mountain and ski guide, I specialized in helicopter skiing in Canada and New Zealand. It was easier on the body and the payday was higher. I worked two winters a year. When I moved to the USA I intended to join the AMGA and do some guiding at weekends, volunteer my time on courses, etc., but I got so turned off by the application form and in particular having to produce a list of climbs, etc., that I just gave up. I would have thought that an experienced IFMGA guide offering to help their program would have been welcomed, especially considering that I assessed on a AMGA Ski mountaineering course in California and the Cascades and afterwards wrote a report to the Secretary recommending that they be allowed to join the IFMGA!John--that is a drag and regrettable...your expertise would've been/would be useful to the AMGA, I'm sure! I think we have a few mutual friends up here in town....it'd be great to get in some pitches/turns together sometime! RC |
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Chris Nischan wrote:Hey Morgan, your Phoenix is showing...lol! how u been Chris? still in CT? |
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doligo wrote: Being a good teacher/instructor has nothing to do with how well you climb. Although it does help to at least look the part (as in not be 50lb. overweight ).hmmmm. |
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FrankPS wrote: That's quite the conspiracy theory - that the AGMA convinced the land managers to only allow AMGA-certified guide services.You can call it a conspiracy theory. I call it simple economics. Part of their overall goal is to promote standards and professionalism, etc. and running lots of courses and certifications is part of that. But let's not be naive, the AMGA makes money off of very course and certification. I don't necessarily have a problem with them making money. It's the monopoly that bothers me. There are other groups out there and the AMGA has basically shut them out. FrankPS wrote: that the AGMA convinced the land managers to only allow AMGA-certified guide services.They have a large financial interest to do so... I doubt the land managers just one day stumbled onto the AMGA website and said "Hey these are the only guys we should allow to guide on our lands". Now I'm not saying there was anything necessarily illegal or immoral there. Sorry if I implied that in my first post, but you can kind of see how some of the existing guide services might have felt (right or wrong) a little slighted by that. MikeS wrote:Stagg, Check out the history of the AMGA. Maybe this will help to clarify some of your misconceptions: amga.com/harnessing-the-bea…I just read that and maybe I missed it, but it seems to reinforce a some of my "misconceptions". It seems more top down than bottom up. It seems like a lot of high name climbers got together and made a decision about standards and then tried to force it on everyone else. You can call that cooperation if you want... It looks to me more like coersion. |
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Stagg54 wrote: But let's not be naive, the AMGA makes money off of very course and certification. I don't necessarily have a problem with them making money. It's the monopoly that bothers me. There are other groups out there and the AMGA has basically shut them out.Again, that fave myth (one of many): that the AMGA is "making money" off courses. I haven't seen the books, but I can assure you, there's nobody making a killing off courses. And the monopoly? A fiction--there are other certification bodies within the US. And "the AMGA has basically shut them out"--I'm not sure how the AMGA would prevent somebody from starting up another certification body...if the AMGA indeed had that sort of pull, I assume AMGA guides would have full access to Yosemite, Denali, and every other choice parcel of Federal land...which they do not. there are legitimate gripes/criticisms/debates regarding the AMGA, land-access issues, certification....but some sort of lucrative monopoly in the guiding world ain't one of 'em. if you're really looking for somebody "making money" off guiding, check out guide services with sole concessions within YOUR national parks...federally mandated business, no competition, 10 year contracts....those are privately owned/run guide companies, NOT the AMGA. happens in Rocky, Rainier, Denali...if anything, the AMGA is trying to loosen that system, not reinforce it. |
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coppolillo wrote: if you're really looking for somebody "making money" off guiding, check out guide services with sole concessions within YOUR national parks...federally mandated business, no competition, 10 year contracts....those are privately owned/run guide companies, NOT the AMGA. happens in Rocky, Rainier, Denali...if anything, the AMGA is trying to loosen that system, not reinforce it.That I would definitely support. |
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Stagg54 wrote:Personally I do see the value in standards, but who made them the self-appointed standard bearers?A multi-year probationary period with the International Federation of Mountain Guides Association (IFMGA/UIAGM; the same body that oversees guiding/certification in France, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, Canada, New Zealand, etc...), 1994-1997 if memory serves, established the AMGA as the standard-bearer in the US. Now, it did not deem it THE standard-bearer...other countries (like Italy) have multiple bodies certifying guides, and each of those three bodies has passed through the IFMGA standards process...so another group in the US could in fact petition the IFMGA and have its curricula approved and therefore certify guides....but no one has. And the AMGA didn't tank anybody's efforts; they're just the only ones who've seen it through. The AMGA is the sole organization in the US that has developed its curricula, petitioned the IFMGA, had visiting guides from Canada and NZ and beyond review its practices/testing....so by virtue of that, it is the lone standard-bearer for int'l guiding at this point....no conspiracy, no collusion...just history, unless you know of some backroom dealings I'm not aware of.... |
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Stagg54 wrote: That I would definitely support.Right on, as do I! I certainly don't know of all situations nationwide...but in Rocky Mtn Natl Park, the AMGA recommended to the Park that other guides/guide services get user days/access, in addition to the longstanding/successful/positive concession Rocky has had with Colorado Mtn School...and the park launched a pilot program this summer doing just that...sounds like a more permanent program will hit 2016...god willing, it will work! now i'm sounding naive! RC |
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There's a lot I don't know about the AMGA, I readily admit that. But something that rubs me the wrong way is their requirement that you take their course before you can take their certification test, even though they themselves have made them separate things that you pay for individually. If I have the skills and knowledge to pass the assessment, why should it matter if I gained those skills and knowledge from an AMGA course or through my own experience? If I can't pass, then I've only wasted my own time and money. Requiring you take their course seems like it can only be financially motivated. |