Extending a top rope anchor?

OK here is my clarification/additional two cents. I read the link (I am familiar with most of Tom's papers). I believe his data and my data are not apples to apples. In many ways they are complimentary and it depends on application and interpretation.

His data says that given identical abrasion tests, webbing holds up less than static line. I don't dispute his results. That said, my data (see caveats at the end) says that webbing may hold up better than line for a given top-rope set up. How can this be?

Reasons: At typical climber weights (my tests at 175 lbs - of pure muscle!) the webbing is less elastic than the line (supported by Tom's data in most cases) Thus, for a climber cyclicly weighting/unweighting a top rope, the webbing sees less to-and-fro motion over an edge (different test condition than Tom's...he kept the cycle-distance constant)

Caveats:
1. My tests used Bluewater static line purchased before their ISO 9000 certification --> may be more variable. Also my line had been used for a few years --> more variability
2. I used new Bluewater climb-spec 1" webbing. Tom did not specify his 1" webbing used (spec or mfr).
3. Edges tested were Sandstone and Basalt rock edges approximating 90 degrees
4. Each anchor length (2x) was 17 ft at 25 degree angle
5. My tests were less rigorously controlled, and did not go to failure on basalt test - no patience, I must confess.

If in doubt, go with Tom's data. Mine is provided with grain of salt and as another consideration. Still you should avoid using climbing rope as your std practice....

I do agree with Bearbreeder that people have been doing all sorts of things successfully for years and that this is really splitting hairs for those interested in such hair splitting. Personally I gave up giving a crap over a decade ago after studying all this stuff and deciding that climbing is actually one of the safest activities that I do.

Allen Sanderson wrote: I second this suggestion to use 1" tubular webbing. It is more utilitarian than static cord. Getting the correct length is easy via a water knot.

I have to disagree on the versatility/utilitarian part. I was a top-rope only guy out at Devil's Lake (webbing galore!) before I started leading a little over a year ago. Honestly since my partner grabbed a 50 ft. static line for when we need to set up top ropes my webbing has pretty much collected dust. I think we used it once because we set up a couple of top ropes at once for people.

It's really a personal preference thing I guess though, but I know since we got that 50 footer it's been my favorite piece of toproping gear.

Rich zz wrote:so create a master point and use a static rope to extend it beyond the edge?

This is also acceptable. Make sure the extension is redundant and non-extendable as well. It can be achieved by say using a closed loop line (e.g. cordelette or nylon sewn sling) and placing limiting knots (overhand or fig. 8) - this way you'll have two strands and knots will prevent extending...

I know this isn't an option for most, but if any of you cats have any Arborist friends who have retired rigging ropes, or arborist shops that have shorter lengths of rope, it sells for cheap. Hopefully if its a friends retired rope, a few beers, but this hog has worked well for me as anchor material (TR). A little heavy, but for cragging who cares, especially those of you who set up a damn tailgate at the cliff. I use the 3/4" and 5/8" diameters and they seem VERY resistant to abrasion.

samsonrope.com/Pages/Produc…

Generally a good video. Two comments however

1. There are neater/more elegant ways to tie a BHK (like fig 8 on a bight) that get you two master point loops...but then most times a BHK is a BHK and you are not looking for style points so admittedly splitting hairs

2. However, If you are trying to get two rope loops in your master point with a snarly looking BHK, but are willing to use an 8 mm dynamic rope over the edge and to your long anchors (he mumbles through something to the effect that 8-10mm static or dynamic doesn't matter) then you are overly beefing up one point and needlessly shaving margins off on another. Sorta like not eating eggs due to cholesterol, while smoking a cigarette.

videos like that make me think there could be a real market in n00bery

"Sorta like not eating eggs due to cholesterol, while smoking a cigarette."

haha

The video doesn't show rope protectors. These are essential, especially over knots that rub on rock as in the video. I've seen a brand new static cut through without one. His knot is so big however, you'd never get a standard rope protector over it.

First off I'm glad you're learning the art of top roping. It will do wonders for your trad game in the future. So many gym climbers head outdoors with nothing other than quickdraws.

Anyway: building a top rope anchor can be done in many ways but I strongly recommend you stick with a static rope and here's my variety of arguments.

1. You can use it to extend. YES as you asked in your second post you can build your normal anchor and then just extend it with the static line. This is quick and EXTREMELY safe because it allows you to equalize the anchor far from the edge and then simply double a static line and toss it off the edge.

2. Static rope vs webbing. The rope is infinitely more durable and forgiving to beginners. There's nothing wrong with webbing but if you are running 30 feet if rope or webbing around a tree and across rocky terrain you will do best using a rope that's tough and less likely to be damaged by any random tourists who walk on it (yikes!) or if you make a minor mistake with your setup.

3. Edge protection. Doubled static is stronger in a cutting scenario.

4. Beyond anchor building what good is the webbing? 100ft of webbing is trash whereas you might find that 100 feet of static rope is great for teaching friends to rappel on and when it really is too trashed to climb on you can easily sell it to an arborist for $20 to use as a speed line for their work.

5. It's kind of a silly final point but I think it's nice to stick with only learning rope knots when you're learning. Add in webbing stuff when you're more advanced and actually need to know them.

Good luck and have fun. Never stop being a TRU (top ropers united) climber ;)

Good info!. Can someone point me in the direction of some static rope for TR anchor? I would assume 30m would suffice for some bolts that are a couple feet back from ledge. Form what i've seen you can buy it by the foot.

This ok?

Yes that's fine_although if the bolts/trees are only a couple feet back, 30m may be a PITA as you will will have to keep doubling it up till it's around 2-3 meters long. And if both the bolts are equal distance from the edge then two runners (pad the edge) with a locker on each end will be much simpler and you won't need to equalize them. But at this point I'm just splitting hairs and either way you at going to be A O.K.

Another good way to do it is to use some short pieces of retired climbing rope. I have been cutting old ropes up for that now to avoid using webbing, which I think is too fragile to put on edges repeatedly. Make sure you melt the ends.

Steve Pisano wrote:Good info!. Can someone point me in the direction of some static rope for TR anchor? I would assume 30m would suffice for some bolts that are a couple feet back from ledge. Form what i've seen you can buy it by the foot.

I just got some 3/8" 30m directly from Sterling:
sterlingrope.com/product/81…
sterlingrope.com/product/81…

Thanks everyone!

hikingdrew wrote: I just got some 3/8" 30m directly from Sterling: sterlingrope.com/product/81… sterlingrope.com/product/81…

So I don't really know what "Prime" means. What is the difference between that and Nylon? Is one better for setting a TR anchor?

Steve Pisano wrote: So I don't really know what "Prime" means. What is the difference between that and Nylon? Is one better for setting a TR anchor?

Did you click the links to see?

Apparently, Sterling uses "Prime" to indicate first quality.

But, are you really asking about the difference between Nylon and HTP (High Tenacity Polyester)? Generally, Polyester is better around water.

Steve Pisano wrote: So I don't really know what "Prime" means. What is the difference between that and Nylon? Is one better for setting a TR anchor?

I'm going to guess that it means first quality as opposed to 'seconds' or 'blem' The polyester cord has much less stretch which might be a desireable quality in a top rope anchor..

Rich zz wrote:How would i set up a top rope anchor if the trees/boulders are far away from the edge?

I use 4" nylon webbing. It's great for wrapping trees, as its width makes it gentle on the bark. It's inexpensive and available at most any truck stop. (It's what you see holding down the loads on flatbed semis on the freeway. Usually has a hook on one end, which I cut off.) Highly abrasion resistant, and at 54 kN working load, strength is not an issue. (If you use opposed locking biners, *both* biners will break before the webbing does.) A bit heavier than static line or 1" webbing, but it's for toproping, I'm not climbing with it in my pack. Rolls up neatly, too. Two or three rolls of it make an anchor you can extend a long ways, over an edge, and that will hold you... and your car.