Strength training for general fitness?

SMR wrote:Aerili I would love to see articles showing results of studies that demonstrate the using a swiss ball/bosu ball make an athlete stronger than the conventional weightlifting methods. In my experience, lifting heavy works for strength/power. If I need a tool to supplement, I use rings or TRX. Note - I am talking about strength not balance or rehab.

Strength can be measured in a lot of ways... So what specific strength measurement are you looking for? The other thing to consider is even if you can say a stability device or a "standard" exercise produced greater strength in, for example, isometric abdominal contraction at 90 degrees trunk flexion (with the rest of the body in "whatever" controlled position you decide on as a researcher), can you say this has a clear indication of enhanced function? And if so, what function?

The key deep trunk stabilizers are hard to measure strength output directly, too, I think, especially because many core strength tests favor large trunk mobilizers (i.e. rectus abdominis, erector spinae, obliques). That is why measuring EMG activity via wire electrode or measuring cross sectional area would be a clearer marker of change than "you can do more sit ups".

But again, my feeling on the point of adding stability training to a regular program is not for maximizing strength but rather for improved proprioception (which decreases naturally with age and has to be trained to be maintained) and to also maintain proper neural drive for "correct" deep stabilizer firing patterns - which can be viewed as prehab (vs rehab) for preventing declines in spinal health and function in all populations, even elite athletes. Therefore, strength is not a good metric to measure improvement in this regard because strength tests favor large, fast twitch muscle groups which primarily mobilize body segments.

SMR wrote:Something that is also not discussed on this forum is that someone at 5.10 strength may benefit or improve with many different tools or many different ways. I think it is fair to state that the more advanced anyone gets in any sport, the tools needed to continue strength development will change as well. I re-read and completely agree with Phil's comments on exercises to incorporate.

Yes, I would agree with this on some level. Advanced athletes will typically be stronger, with better motor patterns established for training techniques, and have very specific needs (which are usually a function of individual deficits vs what they are as a group).

That said, a lot of general conditioning exercises are not special or unique to elite athletes. They are the same as what you would use with more amateur/recreational athletes, the only difference being the need to have different intensities and frequencies programmed into the metrics. For instance, Usain Bolt does one-legged deadlifts. But so do I. However, we probably don't employ the exercise identically in terms of when and how much or even for the same reasons, yet it benefits us both despite the fact he is a world class sprinter and I just like to run trail intervals sometimes.

Also, I am not aware that 5.13/14 climbers tend to suffer from injuries that are unique from 5.10 climbers. Most climbers, regardless of level, seem to be disposed toward similar injuries. Therefore, general conditioning to help avoid some of these problems wouldn't necessarily be different.

Lastly, Phil recommended many exercises that were essentially identical to what I recommended. :) Also, I wanted to say thanks for adding another female voice to the "training fray". It is nice to have. Sorry for the long post.

I guess we agree, then. I do most of the exercises Phil recommended and mentioned this eons ago in the thread. I found that deadlift and glute bridges did more for my core and stability in 3 months than 2 years of other exercises.

With the exception of very specific shoulder mobility exercises, I have found this simple traditional program more than sufficient without adding in swiss ball or bosu ball exercises (To meet my climbing goals).

However, I do like TRX exercises (I would like to see research comparing TRX to bosu/swiss ball). I found someone's thesis somewhere... have to dig for it.
I have no research, but for specificity and functional strength the TRX seems much more applicable to climbing than the balls.... but I am not an expert in this area.

I notice (which I think needs to change) is that women climbers in general gravitate away from lifting (compound movements with heavy weights) and towards ball exercises, yoga, etc, etc. I also see a ton of people incorrectly doing exercises that are supposed to be corrective. So they reemphasize deficient movement patterns (both on the climbing wall and with supplemental exercises). UGH.

I think TRX stuff is really good, I use it, and I also totally endorse your posterior chain work (and do it myself all the time, too). The thing for all of us to remember is to avoid getting too polarized around an issue and realize that it's not all or nothing. There are applications for a wide range of exercises. Some being more useful than others depending on what motivates us personally and what we each need as individuals for our activities and goals.

I should add that I am not saying only BOSU or Swiss ball somehow magically create "stability" training. They don't. There are many ways to challenge stability, including modifying body position on a normal gym floor or mat. In the case of myself, I actually use things like balls in very limited formats and rarely are they a "constant" in my usual training time.

SMR wrote:I notice (which I think needs to change) is that women climbers in general gravitate away from lifting (compound movements with heavy weights) and towards ball exercises, yoga, etc, etc. I also see a ton of people incorrectly doing exercises that are supposed to be corrective. So they reemphasize deficient movement patterns (both on the climbing wall and with supplemental exercises). UGH.

Preachin' to the choir. :)

5.samadhi wrote:spray alert, ryan you need a small 5.12+ crusher gf to sit on your shoulders while you pistol squat (and hang your draws on/onsight your 5.12 projects).

Legit training beta. Will implement and report back with results.

Those who are interested in core training & stability would be wise to check check out Stuart McGill's Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance.

He discusses a few things that I think are applicable to training for climbing. In a case study of an injured rock climber, he notes that the fundamental gait pattern of climbing is a crawl. I found this very interesting, and think that any climber could benefit from various crawling patterns in their training. (Dewey Nielsen has a good youtube channel with examples of this).

youtube.com/user/deweynielsen

McGill also writes about the benefits of a stable core, and how movement of the arms and legs would optimally originate from a stable 'core'. He posits that the function of the core musculature (everything that is not arms, legs, & head) is to create stiffness and stability, which in turn allow the limbs to create torque. A popular analogy is that you cannot fire a cannon from a canoe.

Therefore, once a someone can demonstrate adequate stability in a plank, side plank, and bird dog, the exercises should be tweaked to decrease stability and force the person performing them to reflexively stabilize. This can be done with load, movement, or something like a bosu ball or swiss ball.

Here is a video from Dr. Mcgill with good examples of safe core stability exercises. Note the epic moustache.

youtube.com/watch?v=qsup3Zv…

Gray Cook on stabilizers, another good explanation.

youtube.com/watch?v=ehu40pr…

Chad,

I'll be honest, I haven't read most of what's posted. I also haven't been climbing very long at all so training that complements climbing is something I can't speak on with any authority. However, given that climbing is about moving your body weight and doing so repeatedly, my assumption even months before I began to climb (because I knew I was going to start) was to use my own body weight as much as possible. All I can offer is to tell you what my routine became (and I had to work up to it).

- Two sets of 40 pushups (usually another exercise in between and if I can't get them all at once I take as short a break as possible and use the high pushups position as a resting place as much as possible)

- 100 "backstep" lunges (basically I slide one leg back and keep it straight whilst I drop down butt to heal with the other leg, then push back up. Sometimes I do just 60 of these but with 25lb dumbbells in hand. I alternate legs so it's 50 per leg, or 30 with weights, but it seems to work out a lot more muscles than squats or regular lunges from what I can tell)

- 100 cross-twist sit-ups

- 60 lifts with 25lb dumbbells from down at my sides up to my arm pits (I don't know what this lift is called but I do it anyway)

These four exercises I only do once a week now for maintenance. I do the pushups and sit-ups in the same day, the other two on separate days.

Whilst I've stopped doing pull-ups because I get what I need from climbing now and haven't felt the need to do them just based on how my body feels after the rock gym, I used to do 4 sets of as many as I could with a 5-10 minute break between (usually whilst drinking a beer). I did those every other day.

I can't say these have made me bulky. I'm 6'5" and 200lbs, but it's made me plenty strong enough for my purposes. I also feel it probably gave me a slight jump start on climbing that I would otherwise not have had. I hope this helps to some degree.

It's not wrong to be strong.

Do the core lifts: Squat, Press, Deadlift.

They raise your testosterone levels as well as growth hormone. This means if you do these lifts and then go do more climbing specific training, you will get stronger in the sport-specific activities more so than if you only did the sport-specific exercises.

Try a Wendler strength cycle. Super simple, low volume, and it works.

I've seen a few others post this here, but heavy weight at low reps will not bulk you up. It will however, make you strong as an ox.

Dan Vinson wrote:It's not wrong to be strong. Do the core lifts: Squat, Press, Deadlift. They raise your testosterone levels as well as growth hormone. This means if you do these lifts and then go do more climbing specific training, you will get stronger in the sport-specific activities more so than if you only did the sport-specific exercises. Try a Wendler strength cycle. Super simple, low volume, and it works. I've seen a few others post this here, but heavy weight at low reps will not bulk you up. It will however, make you strong as an ox.

Wtf does jim wendler know about strength and conditioning?

I did 5/3/1 for a while and my mind is still blown that I didn't get irreversibly injured by neglecting bosu ball work. I mean I was literally lifting weights while standing on level ground. If that isn't a recipe for injury I don't know what is.

Ryan Watts wrote: Wtf does jim wendler know about strength and conditioning? I did 5/3/1 for a while and my mind is still blown that I didn't get irreversibly injured by neglecting bosu ball work. I mean I was literally lifting weights while standing on level ground. If that isn't a recipe for injury I don't know what is.

Nice in joke! I'd love to hear Aerlii's riposte.

Me, I stand on the barbell and lift the BOSU 20-30 reps. Do you think that's the ideal training range?

Mark E Dixon wrote: Nice in joke! I'd love to hear Aerlii's riposte. Me, I stand on the barbell and lift the BOSU 20-30 reps. Do you think that's the ideal training range?

lol...jerks...

Now, go squat!