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How much is too much in the alpine?

Bill M · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 317

I use electrical tape to wrap the razor blade and carry it in the bottom of my chalk bag.

Bill M · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 317

I use electrical tape to wrap the razor blade and carry it in the bottom of my chalk bag.

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

We always do alpine routes car to car. Only did bivy once for Lone Eagle Peak, but now I'm not so sure that's the way to go. On all descents we ended back at our packs, so that allows you to carry any size pack. I have tried smaller packs, but the lack of comfortable straps or suspension just makes me very sore and worn out. Sticking with a nice, big pack allows better food, clothing, and more water. The hiking with a load is nothing with a good pack. I hate hanging things like helmets off my pack.

Just keep it light on the actually climbing part. I like a super compact rain jacket or even a disposable plastic one, soft shell pants and jacket (even in summer) and goo or Cliff bars for the route. I'm good with one liter of water, so I like a pack that only fits that and the rain jacket.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I'd like to suggest that "light is right" can be overdone. Some of it is being driven by speed climbers from the Alps who can rush up the Aiguille du Midi in their underwear and just call in the gendarmarie if they get a little chilly. Other aspects are promoted by master climbers who just solo or simul everything. If you can do that, great. But speed isn't safety if you can't go fast enough. In the back country you're on your own, and if the weather turns bad or you get off route or you have to retreat, you may need a tad more than the lightest possible kit to come home intact.

I totally agree with Stich about not paring down the climbing gear too much. Unless you'll be climbing well below your trad onsight limit, I'd want a standard double rack for most long back-country routes at, say, 5.8 or harder for me. You might have to climb in rain, hail, or snow. You might drop a piece. You might need to rig an epic rappel descent. You're screwed with a light rack. I'd also want a twin or half-rope or (least preferably) a tag-line setup that will let me make 60m rappels if things go bad and will give me some options if a rappel hangs irretrievably or a rope is damaged.

None of this is going to slow me down on the climb, it is just heavier to lug on the approach, and again I agree with Stich about using a big pack made for carrying heavier loads for the approach, leaving it at a strategic point for the trip out. Hiking all decked out like a Christmas tree is not much fun for me, and it becomes a nightmare if there is bushwacking. Of course, if your trip is from one point to another with no return to the start, the big pack left below doesn't work.

The talk about knives and razor blades is in the realm of toothbrush-drilling for me. Even a small pocket knife is a whole lot more useful and safer than a razor blade.

I totally get the car-to-car impulse, but I much prefer to bivouac or camp near the climb if possible. For one thing, I like the back country and am not in a big rush to get out of it. For another, I like getting an early start and being fresh for it, and I like having a cozy shelter to return to if I get back later than planned or in bad weather. This means more baggage to haul on the way in and out, but I consider that effort preferable to some forced march that leaves you precious little time to relax and savor your surroundings. Chaim Stern wrote a meditation for the Jewish prayer book Gates of Prayer that has made it into Christian services as well: “Days pass and the years vanish, and we walk sightless among miracles." After 54 years of climbing and a full share of rushing, I take no pleasure at all in the recollection of fast ascents and epic days, but I regret not lingering even more than I did in places like these:





















Take a little more, rush a little less, and don't end up walking sightless among miracles.
Chris D · · the couch · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 2,230

^^^ That.

Rob Cotter · · Silverthorne, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 240

Ah yes, all those Frenchies rushing of up the Midi in their knickers and calling the Secours when they get chilly. If only I had a Euro for every shivering Frenchman I passed by with my gigantic Gregory sack loaded with every doo-dad known to climbing humanity.

But I only jest, the last time I went up the Midi en route to the Mont Blanc du Tacul I had left all manner of kit in the rental car, ice screws, clothes even my headlamp (and it was February) I simply couldn't fit it in. When I got to the climb I'd be damned if two of those Frenchies ( or were they Italians just speaking French?) were climbing the direct mixed start ahead of me, I'll catch them up as they were only just starting the second M6 pitch.

Well the only time I saw them was when they had topped out at the chains and were rappelling down past me. They looked at me incredulously inquired if I was going UP which I indicated I was. They bade me "bon chance" and booked it leaving me to it...

Yes I got a little chilly but only when I stopped and since the whole damn climb was steep with no ledges why stop anyway? Earlier in the week I had gotten dysentery from eating an undercooked sausage lost a bunch of weight and an insidious cold was settling in. My water froze, spindrift poured down off the summit and those Frenchies hadn't made very good holes for me to draft in.

Right around the time when I thought "well this has been fun time to go the f*ck home" I got to the last steep pitch, a grade WI5. I was pretty clapped out at that point and the gray ice was pretty hard and my picks were pretty fried from the 100+ meters of dry-tooling at the start but my sack was nice and light so I could focus on the climbing without having a bunch of extraneous kit to piss me off. Turned out the couloir had melted back so much that a bunch of granite fins were sticking out on the left hand edge and I could scrum a foot over these taking the pressure off my calves, when I got to the rappel anchor with its jolly yellow sling I was pretty relieved.

Now I had an 80 meter 7mm rope and of course all the rappels were rigged for two 60 meter ropes but with some shenanigans and some down-climbing I got down ( yes I didn't want to carry a heavier rope) whereupon it soon got dark and I was skiing down a glacier with no light (recall I left the headlamp in the car).

By Braille I found the hut in the dark hours later, I was all-in at that point but I had brought cash which the guardians gladly accepted for a warm place to sleep, an excellent dinner with beer and wine.

The next day I skied back down to the train, glad I wasn't carrying anymore crap than I was. It was the send of a lifetime but on that final pitch that stood between "sent" and "almost" I knew I had made the correct decision...

Lighter IS Righter!

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45

I'm just putting in my vote for carrying a small first aid kit. In particular, filling a visene sized bottle with hydrogen peroxide can make a long term difference in the chances of how a large laceration heals up later with, or without infection. Climbers tape can hold together a big wound, and/or be an important part of a splint. Gauze weighs almost nothing, and holds a sterile pad in place.

Rob Cotter · · Silverthorne, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 240
Tom Nyce wrote:I'm just putting in my vote for carrying a small first aid kit. In particular, filling a visene sized bottle with hydrogen peroxide can make a long term difference in the chances of how a large laceration heals up later with, or without infection. Climbers tape can hold together a big wound, and/or be an important part of a splint. Gauze weighs almost nothing, and holds a sterile pad in place.
Butterfly bandages. Very useful.
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
DannyUncanny wrote: I gotta disagree with all of those suggestions except the guide book one.
And that is good. I think the thing is to try new ways from a lot of sources and find what works for you.

:)

(By the way, the 1mm cord, isn't so much a replacement for a knife but to ensure that even when you have forgotten the knife, you have a knife!)
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
Martin le Roux wrote: Maybe this is a troll but I'll bite anyway. If I'm doing the math correctly 1,000g of water (1 liter) + 75g of dissolved sports mix weighs 1,075g. That's the same weight as 1 liter of unflavored water and a 75g energy bar, and just about the same calorie content. Not that there's anything wrong with bringing sports mix instead of water, but unless you somehow invoke a nuclear reaction your pack won't be any lighter.
Not a troll. Yes I know the math. I guess I should have said something more along then lines of, the increase in weight is almost zero yet you get to hydrate and eat at the same time.

As the sports power is dried, I guess it has more joules per gram.

Although in theory the water in the bar might count toward your water limit carried, I'm never decanted water from a water bottle thinking "I will take 5ml less because of the water in the bar".
matt c. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 155
Tom Nyce wrote:I'm just putting in my vote for carrying a small first aid kit. In particular, filling a visene sized bottle with hydrogen peroxide can make a long term difference in the chances of how a large laceration heals up later with, or without infection. Climbers tape can hold together a big wound, and/or be an important part of a splint. Gauze weighs almost nothing, and holds a sterile pad in place.
My first aid kit is duct tape and a knife. If i am backpacking longer I start adding things to help with healing process. But on an alpine climb the first aid kit is there for catastrophe situations. ie broken bones, lots of blood loss. When it comes down to it, most things you need in situation like that are bandages(baselayers), splints( the stiff parts of you backpack), a stretcher(rope) and something to hold it all together(duct tape).

Most wilderness first aid classes don't teach the use of hydrogen peroxide anymore, they have you wash the cut with water.

When would you find it necessary to use a sterile pad in the back country? I a thinking maybe a third degree burn cause by lighting... when else?
Martin le Roux · · Superior, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 401
David Coley wrote:As the sports power is dried, I guess it has more joules per gram.
Actually sports mix doesn't have a very high energy density, since it's 100% carbohydrate. The highest energy densities come from foods with a lot of fat content. This doesn't make much difference on a 1-day climb, but here are some numbers I put together for an Alaskan trip.

Sports mix (Gatorade powder) 3.56 kCal/100g
Energy bars (Clif Builder Bars) 3.86
Dark chocolate 5.50
Cashew nuts 5.71
Macadamia nuts 7.14
Butter 7.17
doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264
Tom Nyce wrote:I'm just putting in my vote for carrying a small first aid kit. In particular, filling a visene sized bottle with hydrogen peroxide can make a long term difference in the chances of how a large laceration heals up later with, or without infection. Climbers tape can hold together a big wound, and/or be an important part of a splint. Gauze weighs almost nothing, and holds a sterile pad in place.
Actually, using peroxide and rubbing alcohol on wounds can delay healing. Soap and water are the best when caring for wounds. You can carry a tiny sliver of what is left from your bar soap at the end of its lifecycle (the stuff that you normally throw away or old wives used to collect and put in a sock).

Bandaids, gauze, sterile pads, little alcohol swabs and visine-size peroxide are pretty silly if you think about it. Are you really worried about tiny cuts and scrapes when you go climbing? If you are really serious about wounds, carry 1-2 maxipads (to stop bleeding), a vial of cayenne pepper (for blood clotting) and if you must, a vet wrap. Plus a pill or two of a narcotic of your choice for pain (enough to hold you over to bail/evac).
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520
doligo wrote: Actually, using peroxide and rubbing alcohol on wounds can delay healing. Soap and water are the best when caring for wounds.
This. Stop using rubbing alcohol and peroxide. Not only do they sting but they suck.
Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

As others already agreed, Rich said it well:

'“Days pass and the years vanish, and we walk sightless among miracles." After 54 years of climbing and a full share of rushing, I take no pleasure at all in the recollection of fast ascents and epic days, but I regret not lingering even more than I did'

Great photos, Rich.

Nick Stayner · · Wymont Kingdom · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 2,315

Wow, rgold. Post of the week, if not the month! Great photos, outstanding sentiment described in that quote. Thanks!

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

Rich, I finally got the backpacking experience right when I went to the Wind Rivers last August and agree wholeheartedly that it's the best way to do it. It was simply lovely being up there for multiple days.

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

Sometimes the only way an objective happens is if the climb is done quickly and with minimal gear. Even if you're camping at the base of the route, what you carry can impact the probability of completing your goal. Its easy to stand back and pontificate about the finer things in life but that seems to avoid the question of preparedness, strategy, and just priorities in general. I'll take compressing a climb into a day if it means I get to climb as opposed to working.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
doligo wrote: Actually, using peroxide and rubbing alcohol on wounds can delay healing.
It seems hydrogen peroxide doesn't work. I don't think you can put rubbing alcohol into any kind of wound. But beyond that...

Antiseptics on Wounds: An Area of Controversy
Anna Drosou, MD, Anna Falabella, MD, Robert S. Kirsner, MD
medscape.com/viewarticle/45…

The use of antiseptics on wounds is currently being viewed with skepticism. Results from in-vitro studies have shown that antiseptics are toxic not only against bacteria and other microorganisms but also against human cells essential to the wound healing response. These findings resulted in a series of animal and human studies in order to evaluate the in-vivo activity of antiseptics. However, it seems that in human subjects, pronounced cytotoxicity, found in vitro, was not confirmed. In the majority of clinical trials, antiseptics appear to be safe and were not found to negatively influence wound healing. Their antimicrobial efficiency, with the exception of hydrogen peroxide, seems satisfactory as well.

...

Antiseptics need not be omitted from the therapeutic armamentarium of wound care. In patients and wound types with high risk of infection, antiseptics may be used to prevent wound infection that would have deleterious effects on wound healing. Antiseptics present advantages over topical antibiotics, since they do not cause the emergence of drug-resistant bacteria and have broader antimicrobial spectrum and lower sensitization rates.

In conclusion, after review of the literature, most antiseptics, especially newer formulations, appear to be relatively safe and efficient in preventing infection in human wounds. The advantages of antiseptics on wounds may outweigh possible disadvantages, and their position in wound care management should be reconsidered.
Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

Dark Chocolate

dense calories
went down well without water

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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