How much is too much in the alpine?

So I am going to let my n00b colors fly here for a bit. Getting ready to set out on my first multi-day alpine adventure. Wondering how people attack the process of gear selection. Obviously I want to go as light as possible while still having enough gear to be somewhat safe and comfortable.

I have gone over my gear multiple times and pretty sure I have made it as light as possible, but when you have to haul 8 pounds of water and 4 pounds of food it's pretty damn difficult to keep with the whole light is right theory, especially when your route is notorious for overnight bivies.

Just looking for people's opinion on what they expect to lug into the back country when after alpine objectives that can't be done in a single push.

Please feel free to give any input you have, helpful or not.
I enjoy reading the forum. ;)

jeb

Missing lots of details here, where are you going? What's the objective? Why are you carrying so much water? (I guess its a big wall?)

Yeah dude, fill us in some more and I'm sure you'll get all the input you want.

Completely depends on the route, your experience/climbing level, and your strategy.

What is the objective?

Water filter and purifier if you are near a source. Why carry all that aqua?

Nick Votto wrote: Why are you carrying so much water? (I guess its a big wall?)

8 pounds of water is only a gallon. Pretty reasonable for 2 people.

Hydrate day before and morning of. Carry less water that way.

Edit: Of course this depends on objective.

Not sure a gallon of water is too much to be worried about but I can throw out some more info.

Looking at the west ridge of Mt. Stuart. Currently no water on route so you fill up at ingalls creek. The route is notorious for route finding issues hence the extra food and water. I will leave as much as possible (tent, sleeping bag, etc.)at the lake and retrieve it on the way out. The rack is 5 cams and 1/2 set of nuts with 9 slings and a codalette, and 9.2x60.

I am comfortable with the difficulty, I have done my fair share of multipitch. this is just my biggest objective to date.

I guess what I am looking for is the whole what do you carry in when you know it's going to be more than a day, and how much weight should you be expecting to haul on your back. Both to camp and on route.

jeb

9.2mm rope for W ridge of Stuart? I would use a 7.5mm 60 meter line and double it up with 30 meters between you and your partner since that route is best simul-climbed. You can save like 4 pounds that way. That route has no raps either. If you are leaving the tent and sleeping gear by ingalls creek, you should have nothing left other than your rack, clothes, jacket, food and whatever water you bring....maybe 10-15 pounds total when the rope is in use.

I only need a liter, maybe 2 for a full day in the Cascades but everyone is different. Drink 2-3 liters the day you hike in and another liter before you start on the route that morning.

Good luck...I hear that's a fun route and an excellent one to do for a first technical objective.

Standard alpine rack for climbing well within my ability would be about 5 cams, no big guys, half set of nuts, maybe one or two hexes, 5 slings with biners, 2 tripled up draws, a double length sling, 2 lockers, belay device. Plus prussik, a rope, climbing shoes, harness, nut key.

I would throw this in my pack with a light rain shell, and a pair of gloves. Sandwich for lunch. I keep 2 or 3 bars stuffed in my pockets for easy access at belays. Usually 1 or 2 L of water, a headlamp. First aid kit has a lighter, some dental floss, sterile dressing, alcohol swab, climbing tape, and a sugar gel thing. There's a razor blade taped inside my helmet that has come in handy a lot of times. The backrest of my pack is a folded up car sun visor that has occasionally helped keep me warm when sitting around.

jeb013 wrote:Not sure a gallon of water is too much to be worried about but I can throw out some more info. Looking at the west ridge of Mt. Stuart. Currently no water on route so you fill up at ingalls creek. The route is notorious for route finding issues hence the extra food and water. I will leave as much as possible (tent, sleeping bag, etc.)at the lake and retrieve it on the way out. The rack is 5 cams and 1/2 set of nuts with 9 slings and a codalette, and 9.2x60. I am comfortable with the difficulty, I have done my fair share of multipitch. this is just my biggest objective to date. I guess what I am looking for is the whole what do you carry in when you know it's going to be more than a day, and how much weight should you be expecting to haul on your back. Both to camp and on route. jeb

Are you descending the cascadian? Hiking back up to Ingalls to get your stuff would be kind of a pain. From what I remember, there is only a pitch or two of climbing on that route, the rest is scrambling. I think I took a full set of nuts and #1,2,3 BD cams. A gallon of water seems like an awful lot. The climb should only take 4 or 5 hours.

If you go with a mentality of being ready to bivy, you will bivy. Make a pact with yourself and your partner that you will hike out no matter what and you'll likely persevere.

On a multi-day climbs I roughly average 1lb. per day per person of food (mix of dehydrated, calorie-dense food). At the camp, I eat well for dinner (for recovery) and fuel up well for breakfast (a bagel + nutella + almond butter). On the route itself, I only carry a few bars and GU (chomps or gels). Depending on the route, either a litter per person or a litter for two. Like others said, hydrate before the climb. Eat lots of carbs in order to hold the water or it will go through.

Here is a link for Steph Davis' tips on hydrating for long routes: highinfatuation.com/blog/li…

I've done a fair amount of backpacking (over a week-long trips), and I think I have the food part pretty dialed, PM me if you need tips and recipes.

This is the kind of stuff that helps. I actually started doing one of these things myself. I believe Mr. Uncanny had mentioned something about this in another thread, but the razor blade taped to the inside of the helmet trick is a great idea. The first trip that I had taped it there... I used it.

The sun visor trick seems like a winner too.

DannyUncanny -
"There's a razor blade taped inside my helmet that has come in handy a lot of times. The backrest of my pack is a folded up car sun visor that has occasionally helped keep me warm when sitting around."

This is what I like about MP... you mine through the nonsense and find gold.

Basically what DannyUncanny said.

You can bring a gallon of what if you want to, but I hope that's for two people. I can sympathize I get accused of drinking a lot of water by my partners, and I do. Most importantly though, hydrate well the days before and on the approach.

A headlamp - or don't and you will never make that mistake again.

A topo you made of the route, it can be on a picture, whatever really. West ridge of Stuart is not really going to be about the climbing as much as the route finding.

Clothing options are completely weather dependent. That's just something you have to figure out the hard way. Use common sense I guess.

9.2 might seem light to a rock climber who is going cragging, but for the alpine, especially a route of that nature that is a lot of rope - especially 60 meters. If you have access to a 7.7-8.2 in that length you can use it more effectively as a half rope, saves you on the weight and rope management. If not that rope will work fine, and you will get more training in :) Personally, for climbing in the cascades I have a couple 40m that I use mainly.

In terms of water (one of the heaviest things you carry on the climb), note that Steph Davis (linked above) recommends an intense pre-climb hydration regimen and then only carries 12 oz per person on the climb, with each person carrying their own little 12 oz bottle on the harness. I've done this quite a bit, but it would help to know it will work for you before trying it on a remote route, since all you can do on the climb with that little water is to have a sip after every pitch.

I'll echo the previous sentiment about planning to have a bivy inevitably leads to having to bivy.

If I think There's a chance that I'd have to stop overnight in the event of an epic debacle, my "emergency bivy kit" consists of:

1: three panels of a folding sleeping pad (my dogs chewed up one of my full length pads, so I kept the three intact panels). Super light an compact, and definitely keeps your ass warm if you're going to be sitting around for a few hours.

2. Synthetic belay puffy (like the Das Parka or BD Stance Belay Hoody) make sure there's a hood.

3. Super cheap emergency space blanket.

All of those items can come in handy even without the need to bivy, and if you do have to do so, you won't be comfortable, but, you'll survive.

DannyUncanny wrote:There's a razor blade taped inside my helmet that has come in handy a lot of times.

The whole reason you where a helmet to protect your head. What happens if you helment get hit by a rock, where does the razor blade go? I guess that i would give you an opportunity to use the sterile dressing you like to hump around.

I use trango's Piranha to keep pesky things like razor blades out of my head...

A mcDonald's straw inside the helmet is like gold, it allow you to get water from seeps that normally would be out of reach.

Space blanket one per person, the don't work well as a cuddle blanket.

I would consider taking Hexes instead of Cams.

As mentioned, hydrate thoroughly the day before and just before hitting the trail, except eat more salt(natural sea salt) and bananas and avocados for potassium. Drinking a lot of extra water can upset your electrolyte balance.

If the hike in with heavy packs will be sweaty, use a hydrophilic neck wrap. They stay wet a long time providing cooling. Be sure to soak it before you leave since it takes a lot of water to completely absorb.

The idea that you need to leave your big cams at home is something I now reject when doing alpine routes, because in the end all that says is that you can't pack in a load. Bring a big pack with a good suspension and you can bring a double cam rack and will be able to aid when you need to. Having more than one of the same size cam is really, really nice to me in an alpine setting. I have done it both ways with the tiny rack and the double one and I won't be going back to tiny unless it is a route I have done many times and know that's all I need.

Your milage may vary of course. Consider getting a water filter, too. Then you can drink from streams to your heart's content and not worry about that extra weight.

Also, you need not lead every pitch with the whole double rack. The rack can be pared down as needed.

doligo wrote:If you go with a mentality of being ready to bivy, you will bivy. Make a pact with yourself and your partner that you will hike out no matter what and you'll likely persevere...

Nailed it!

Bring enough to make sure you can just keep going. I think endurance runners call it "safety in movement." BUT that can also lead you pretty exposed if something does happen. In the end it's up to your personal tolerance for commitment and confidence in your abilities to make the final decision of how comfortable you are with what you are taking on-route.

-Mac

All good advice so far. I have done some evaluating with the information here and think I could probably shed a couple extra pounds. This was the kind of info I was looking for. I think I was so hung up on the bivy due to route finding that I just started preparing for an extra day on route.

This will be an awesome learning experience and there is no doubt that experience is how you learn what systems work for you and what don't.

Thanks all,
jeb