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Clove Hitch Fail

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425

Thanks for the play by play Mark.

I have to say though that I don't consider that knot "tied". Sure it's in the shape of a clove hitch, but that knot is only a knot when you dress it. Hell pretty much all knots are like that, but ESPECIALLY a clove. No judgement, but I couldn't imagine tying a knot in that fashion on a climb.

If you aren't setting a clove, you haven't tied it.

Ryan202 · · West Jordan, UT · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 130

I tie in to a two-point anchor with the rope using a clove hitch on a master point. I always dress the knot. If the knot's not dressed, it's not complete. Thanks for sharing.

Mark O'Neal · · Nicholson, GA · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 3,323
Scott McMahon wrote:Thanks for the play by play Mark. I have to say though that I don't consider that knot "tied". Sure it's in the shape of a clove hitch, but that knot is only a knot when you dress it. Hell pretty much all knots are like that, but ESPECIALLY a clove. No judgement, but I couldn't imagine tying a knot in that fashion on a climb. If you aren't setting a clove, you haven't tied it.
Couldn't agree more. I imagine (hope) the OP had it a little tighter than what I showed. I did it like that just for the example.
Stan Pitcher · · SLC, UT · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 210

Thanks Mark, I played around with it a bit too and its easy to get the clove-hitch back if you set up the rope like it is in the pictures. Here's a picture from the other side. Note in both these pics I am tied in at the bottom.

When I hitched in the biner nose was on the bottom as you'd expect so in the pictures the biner has flipped. And of course it was much tighter than in your photo 1. There was 100+ feet of rope pulling down on the belayer side right of the anchor and I was ~10 feet below and left of the anchor.

Nobody as mentioned the other variable that I suspect may have played a role in what happened. Can't help but wonder if the 'tripled' shoulder sling gave way some how leading to the forces that opened the biner gate? My friend who retrieved my gear said it was hanging full length from the biner on the bolt.

So another takeaway for me from this experience is to pay more attention to gear both before the climb and when you are clipping into it.

Best to always use locking biner when clove hitching!

Tyler Phillips · · Cottonwood Heights, UT · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 3,195
Scott McMahon wrote:Thanks for the play by play Mark. I have to say though that I don't consider that knot "tied". Sure it's in the shape of a clove hitch, but that knot is only a knot when you dress it. Hell pretty much all knots are like that, but ESPECIALLY a clove. No judgement, but I couldn't imagine tying a knot in that fashion on a climb. If you aren't setting a clove, you haven't tied it.
Hitches aren't Knots. Hitches are releasable, Knots are not. Semantics I know, just food for thought.
Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175

So many lulz to be harvested from this thread - good thing my combine is back from the shop.

Jeff Scheuerell · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 2,298

What/why/how did you use a tripled length sling???

Mark O'Neal · · Nicholson, GA · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 3,323

I was a bit confused by this as well.
If the PAS isn't long enough, how is a tripled sling long enough?

I had a completely different thought though. Maybe the clove on the biner did it's thing during the fall when it was loaded from above and below, and the sling came off the biner for some completely different reason?

Patrick Yarbrough · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 200

Like most of everyone else, I'd assumed you incorrectly tied your clove hitch, but I tried re-creating the image you posted, and then sliding the rope together to see what knot it formed- a clove hitch.

recreation

clove hitch

I guess they two main things I take from this: always clip into an anchor with your personal anchor, and cinch your clove hitches tightly before weighting them.

Edit: also didn't see the second page where someone else did this... derp

hikingdrew · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 38
infiniteforests wrote:...cinch your clove hitches tightly before weighting them.
Just came across this article about the care and feeding of your clove hitches:
guidetricksforclimbers.com/…
Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425

Made sure to give my cloves some extra loving this weekend.

Paul-B · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 115
Scott McMahon wrote: I have to say though that I don't consider that knot "tied". Sure it's in the shape of a clove hitch, but that knot is only a knot when you dress it. Hell pretty much all knots are like that, but ESPECIALLY a clove. No judgement, but I couldn't imagine tying a knot in that fashion on a climb. If you aren't setting a clove, you haven't tied it.
Well, I have to admit, pretty sure I had "tied" a lot of cloves like that. Why? Several reasons: I want to get my 2nd moving quickly, I am planning on adjusting the length of rope out to get a comfortable length after my second is climbing- might as well leave it a bit loose, I was pretty sure if I fell on a loose clove it would tighten automatically and I would be safe. I usually clip in at two points, but I would bet that out of all the pitches I have climbed I have done exactly as the OP once or twice. I appreciate the OP posting this, I learned something, I learned not to be careless, the clove is not fool proof. You can rest easy knowing you've at least saved one other climber from a similar accident.
H.. · · Washingtonville NY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 45
TylerPhillips wrote: Hitches aren't Knots. Hitches are releasable, Knots are not. Semantics I know, just food for thought.
I thought the difference was hitches had to be done around an object (not that they are releasable) where as knots did not.

probably just more semantics and using 'releasable' in a way i necessarily wouldnt.

words...
Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

hitches are considered part of the knot "family," but need some other object to hold their form.

binding rope to an object

jacob sidorin · · Loveland · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 375

It does not fail

Paul Hutton · · Nephi, UT · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 740

I've tried to form the coils with one hand to complete a clove hitch in the past, and ended up with a munter. I would weight the hitch while backed up on PAS, and the munter hitch would unravel and snake wildly down the spine or the gate of the carabiner. Perhaps you're mistaking the clove hitch with something else. This doesn't fall apart like in the picture when you do it correctly. At least, not in MY experience.

Eli 0 · · northeast · Joined May 2016 · Points: 5
hikingdrew wrote: ...cinch your clove hitches tightly before weighting them. Just came across this article about the care and feeding of your clove hitches: guidetricksforclimbers.com/…

That link is dead. The article can now be found at:

http://guidetricksforclimbers.com/use-and-abuse-of-the-clove-hitch/


Sorry for bumping this old thread.
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

Typical humans. find something to blame and you are all in regardless  if it is the correct scapegoat.    In this case the scapegoat is the non locking biner.
There are at least two real culprits here.
#1. the clove hitch was not dressed. most knots that are not properly tightened and dressed are useless.
#2. It is difficult to properly dress a clove hitch on mini biners. So while the biner is at fault it is not because it was a non locker but because it is a mini biner. It is not impossible to properly dress a clove hitch on all mini biners but it is difficult and some biners suck for the application.  Camp Nanos are tricky to clove hitch but you can make it work. You do have to really tighten them.  
 I have 38 years in the game and am still alive and I have zero problems tying in with a single clove hitch on a non locker providing the knot is properly dressed and tightened.  If the knot won't properly dress and tighten on a particular style of biner then it's a no go. Some biners the angles are too sharp and the knot just does not look right.. If it doesn't look right chances are it is not right..

Fehim Hasecic · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 215
Stan Pitcher wrote: I made several mistakes at the top of a climb as I prepared to belay my partner and took a huge fall as a result. Posting this in the hope that no others will do the same! Mistake 1: At top of climb (big ledge), I did not clip the chains. Mistake 2: I clove hitched to a non-locking biner (tripled shoulder-length sling with neutrinos). Mistake 3: I didn't cinch the clove hitch tight. Mistake 4: I hadn't backed up the clove hitch. I always do this before going off belay/belaying but had got in bad habit of sometimes not doing it until I'd adjusted the length. Then I stepped to the ledge edge below and left of the chains (where I would be able to see my partner climbing) and happy with the length, I leaned back a little and instantly went flying! Luckily, I didn't get hurt too bad and I did have a helmet on. I don't remember hitting my head but my helmet had cracks inside. Somehow the un-tightened clove hitch had opened the gate and the biner had come off the tripled sling. The biner was still on the rope. Be safe out there!

This is more concerning than loosely tied clove hitch. 

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

It is far from clear what the full set-up was when the cloved installation failed.  The primary, perhaps only, mistake was the loose clove hitch, which, as you found, is an accident waiting to happen. Fully-tightened clove hitches are reliable and don't need to be backed up.  Biners that are going to move around should be lockers, biners that are stationary in the anchor rigging can be non-lockers.  I agree with Nick that one has to be especially careful with mini biners.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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