Belay technique discussion

David Gibbs wrote:I've seen one general principle mentioned: always have a hand on the brake side of the rope. I've not noticed another important general principle -- though rgold alludes to it -- have the brake-strand out of brake position for the minimum amount of time. The pinch & slide method violates this 2nd principle. As with rgold, I will use a variety of techniques and motions, depending on how much rope I'm moving, and how/where I'm positioned. Sometimes I'll brake with my right hand, sometimes with my left. I find especially at an anchor on a multi-pitch climb, that being locked into only one movement can be really awkward depending on how things are setup. One motion sequence I've not seen discussed is an alternating brake-hand motion. I find this is most helpful for pulling in large amounts of slack. Essentially it is: Brake-hand starts near belay device, other hand high on rope. Brake-hand up, pulling in rope while other hand pulls down rope. Brake-hand down to brake position. Other hand grabs brake-rope near belay device, becomes brake-hand. Former brake-hand grabs climber-side rope high, becomes other hand. Repeat. This is, actually, one step shorter than the normal motion, but alternates which hand is brake hand. Always has a hand on the brake strand, pulls rope in quickly when needed, and always has a hand holding the brake strand. Of course, you have to be comfortable doing things left & right handed -- but that's pretty important for climbing anyway.

This. Pinch above the device and slide is dumb.

When taking in slack i also try to use a winching motion with both hands on the brake rope to keep the brake strand in braking position.

I like to belay with a Munter Hitch and use it the pinch & slide belay method with it. While I've never thought about the non-braking mode disadvantage of the pinch & slide, I don't think you have that disadvantage when using a Munter (compared to an ATC). In fact, having the brake strand above the hitch increases the braking force.

The gyms I climb in require a belay device like an ATC, so when indoors I use an ATC with the BUS method (because that's the method gyms prefer too).

I generally prefer the Munter because it's one less piece of gear to haul around, it has greater holding power than an ATC for leader falls, and I haven't had a lot problems with rope twist when rapping.

Pinch and slide is indeed the appropriate technique for Munter hitch belaying, since it keeps the rope in maximal braking position.

rgold wrote:Pinch and slide is indeed the appropriate technique for Munter hitch belaying, since it keeps the rope in maximal braking position.

Right- because the Munter hitch brakes up instead of down like the majority of devices.

David Gibbs wrote:...One motion sequence I've not seen discussed is an alternating brake-hand motion. I find this is most helpful for pulling in large amounts of slack. Essentially it is: Brake-hand starts near belay device, other hand high on rope. Brake-hand up, pulling in rope while other hand pulls down rope. Brake-hand down to brake position. Other hand grabs brake-rope near belay device, becomes brake-hand. Former brake-hand grabs climber-side rope high, becomes other hand. Repeat. This is, actually, one step shorter than the normal motion, but alternates which hand is brake hand. Always has a hand on the brake strand, pulls rope in quickly when needed, and always has a hand holding the brake strand. Of course, you have to be comfortable doing things left & right handed -- but that's pretty important for climbing anyway.

A while ago, bandages for a finger injury made it more difficult to close my usual (right) brake hand tightly around the rope. I got used to using the left to brake for top-roping in the gym (it just happened that none of my partners were leaders during that period). There was hardly any learning curve with the switchover and definitely no safety issues since, despite my preference for the right brake, different circumstances have on occasion made it easier to brake with the left over the years and with a variety of belaying techniques and devices.

When I began being able to use the right again to brake, I found that being now "fully ambidextrous" for TR belaying, I was slipping naturally into using what seemed like a better belaying technique. By switching braking hand with each take, I was able to secure the brake strand in braking position and get reset to take again in only 3 movements instead of the usual 4 (no pinch and slide for me with an ATC, thank you, only with the Munter).

I just now did a search to see if this had been discussed before and found this recent thread. I vaguely remember giving it a cursory look at the time but don't remember reading this particular post. If I did, I obviously did not catch its significance. Other than this, I found only a very vague reference in an RC.com thread from 2003.

Safety-wise, I feel that there really is nothing wrong with this since, as David points out, the brake strand is held in braking position at all times during the hand switching/resetting. I also concur that this 3-movement technique really shines when needing to take fast. I can much more easily keep up with a fast climber at the gym now. Also, when there's a fair bit of slack to take up after the climber has tied in and before he starts climbing, I no longer bother to take it with an upward hand-over-hand pull as I did before. The 3-movement belay is so fast and natural that I use it for that as well. In fact, I've gotten so used to it that the 4-movement method now feels quite clunky to me.

jktinst wrote: When I began being able to use the right again to brake, I found that being now "fully ambidextrous" for TR belaying, I was slipping naturally into using what seemed like a better belaying technique. By switching braking hand with each take, I was able to secure the brake strand in braking position and get reset to take again in only 3 movements instead of the usual 4 (no pinch and slide for me with an ATC, thank you, only with the Munter).

While I think this technique is perfectly fine, I’ve done it on rare occasions; I don’t think there’s a big enough advantage to advocate it over the current method taught to most climbers. A couple of reasons come to mind: 1. this technique requires the user to be fairly competent belaying with either hand as the brake hand. However, most people have a dominate hand and they are not comfortable belaying with their non-dominate hand unless they take the time to practice. 2. The speed advantage of this technique is really not that much if someone is practiced with the regular palm-down method. Most describe the regular method as a 4-step method: one, take in slack; two, lock-off; three, use the guide hand to grab the rope below the brake hand; four, slide the brake hand up the rope. In practice, it’s not four separate and distinct steps, but one fluid motion. Steps two to four can all be accomplished in one motion: as my brake hand comes down from taking in slack, my guide hand is already grabbing the rope below the brake hand; by the time both of my hands are down in the braking position, I have already slid my brake hand close to the belay device and I’m really to take in slack. I have never had problem keeping up with my climber using this method, unless they are scrambling up something super easy to get to the actual climb. In that case, the fastest way to take in slack is with both hands on the brake strand and just hand-over-hand it. 3. Since we Americans are pretty opposed to change (Day light savings time?! Imperial system?!), a lot of people will be quite uncomfortable to see you belay like that. As the belayer, you probably want to make your climber comfortable with your belaying technique. I’m just happy to see most people don’t use the palm-up method (or pinch-and-slide above the belay device) anymore with a tube device, even though I still see it from time to time.

Sarah, it's your life. You know how to belay correctly. Never trust, or partner with, anyone who does anything that you know is dangerous and lethal.

I think rgold has the best and most complete answer. In short, his belay technique is fine and 100% safe. That said, you have a right to ask your partner to belay in a manner that makes you comfortable, and if he is unwilling or unable to do so you don't need to climb with him.

Edit: Whoops, looks like this thread died long ago and jktinst has resurrected it. Probably should have let it stay dead.

I agree with slim and rgold here. I use both techniques to belay on TR. And in no way do I think sliding your brake hand up the rope without the other hand below is unsafe. As rgold pointed out, it is not ideal if the climber is climbing very fast. So i do not do that when the climber is moving fast. When I am sliding my belay hand up, it is wrapped around the rope and stopping the climber from falling is as easy as closing my grip. In fact, I would argue that a climber falling when you have the break strand parallel to the top rope with the break hand sliding down (generally, the way gyms teach belaying) can be more dangerous. There is much less friction from the device in that position and a significant movement of the brake hand downward is needed to stop the climber. Where as, a belayer just sliding their hand up the rope just needs to close their hand since they are already in the brake position. Either way, if the belayer is paying attention, you will be fine.

I agree with those that say it's fine, for the following reasons...

The stopping power is achieved with the friction between the rope and the device, not the friction between your hand and the rope. What is more important is the position of your hand: the brake strand below the device will stop a fall, above it will not.

The idea that it is ok with lead belaying but not ok for TR doesn't make sense. There are much higher fall forces created in a lead fall. Using a loose hand for lead belaying is sometimes necessary to pay out rope. This is fine as long as your hand remains around the rope at all times.

I believe when lead belaying with a grigri, the recommended brake hand technique is placing the index finger under the lip of the device, the thumb over the cam, with the middle, ring, and pinky fingers holding the rope in your hand to pay out rope. The net effect is the same as you describe: the rope is only held loosely in the brake hand, but still held.

I find that sometimes when lowering a light climber, there is enough friction in an ATC alone that I have to loosen my grip and lift my brake hand just to let them down. Their descent is easily stopped just by lowering the brake hand back down to stop position.

Nonetheless, you still have to be comfortable with what your belayer is doing. When it's your own safety at stake, you decide. But as long as he is attentive and his brake hand remains around the rope at all times, there's no cause for concern.

Sounds fine to me. Too many gym trained belayers moving outside and taking that gym training with them.

Doug S wrote: I believe when lead belaying with a grigri, the recommended brake hand technique is placing the index finger under the lip of the device, the thumb over the cam, with the middle, ring, and pinky fingers holding the rope in your hand to pay out rope. The net effect is the same as you describe: the rope is only held loosely in the brake hand, but still held.

Keep in mind this is only for when your leader is clipping and needs slack quickly. For normal upward climbing movements, the belayer should be holding/feeding the Gri just like a tube.

Sounds good but while there may be circumstances where the pros outweigh the cons ---belaying Trad climbs with a Gri Gri NOT recommended!!

aikibujin wrote: While I think this technique is perfectly fine, I’ve done it on rare occasions; I don’t think there’s a big enough advantage to advocate it over the current method taught to most climbers. (...) 1. this technique requires the user to be fairly competent belaying with either hand as the brake hand. However, most people have a dominate hand and they are not comfortable belaying with their non-dominate hand unless they take the time to practice. 2. The speed advantage of this technique is really not that much (...) 3. (...) a lot of people will be quite uncomfortable to see you belay like that. As the belayer, you probably want to make your climber comfortable with your belaying technique...

I wasn't advocating for a replacement of the 4-movement method by the 3-movement one, just passing along my experience discovering the latter and the reasons why I really like it. I haven't even tried to get my own daughters to switch. Like most younger climbers, they were taught belaying (by me, in this case) starting with TR and using the 4-movement method with their dominant hand as the brake hand. Ambidextrous belaying was introduced later, along with other belaying techniques. This was emphasized further during additional training for trad multipitch seconding but, of course, that happened only after the dominant hand had been firmly established as the preferred brake hand. For them to adopt the 3-movement method, they would have to spend some time getting thoroughly comfortable braking with their non-dominant hand, as I did. They have not expressed any interest in trying that and I'm certainly not about to try and impose it.

The improved speed and fluidity of the 3-movement method is quite noticeable to me but I completely agree that, in the great scheme of things, this improvement is really quite marginal. As you say, when needed, one can perform the 4-movement method fairly fast. When belaying a climber on TR (or a second on redirect) who is motoring through a particularly easy section (most commonly a low-angle slab section, as you say, or a ledge traverse), keeping a snug rope at all times is often not so critical and accidentally pulling too hard on the rope could in fact be detrimental. The belayer can often catch up on taking up the slack at the pro-removal stops or as the climber starts on steeper rock. In those types of sections, the climber will also typically not have a problem slowing down if the belayer asks. Official speed-climbing competitions use machine belays that are significantly faster than the 3-movement method so the only occasion I can think of when one could really use a faster belaying technique would be for more informal speed climbing events. If we were to film and slow down the movements of the designated belayers rushing through the 4-movement method at the speed-climbing events held twice a year at my gym, I'm not sure that we would find that they really kept the braking strand firmly grasped at all times but they don't pick noobs to belay these events either and I've never heard of an accident in this type of circumstances here or anywhere else.

On the other hand, belay braking is not a particularly complex task that really requires the use of one's dominant hand. If we emphasized from the beginning the importance of ambidextrous belaying and encouraged beginners in their early training to firmly establish the 4-movement method with both hands, getting them to practice braking first with their non-dominant hand and only later with their dominant one and encouraging them to continue practicing both in alternance, they would end up being (very slightly) better belayers, having acquired complete ambidextrous belaying ability right from the start rather than having to learn it later in more advanced training and after many days/years of dominant-hand-only braking. The 3-movement method could be either introduced after ambidextrous 4-movement belaying has been well-established, or simply allowed to evolve naturally, as it did for me. Again, I am not advocating for this method, only toying with a "what if" and "then" scenario to show that our near-universal preference for dominant-hand braking is really mostly a product of expediency and shortcuts in training beginners.

Regarding the discomfort you anticipate I will cause to the climbers I belay, I have explained this method to a few regular partners (other than my daughters) and they had zero problem with it. I have also used it with more occasional partners without the detailed explanation and in full view of gym staff and, predictably, no-one saw or said anything. The key aspect of standard belaying methods is keeping the rope grasped firmly in braking position while doing the hand reset. This braking is what people look for when checking out a belayer and whether you're decomposing the 3-movement method or just using it incognito, that is all anyone focuses on to check that you're belaying safely. Of course, in an accreditation test, where the tester will look for each of the 4 movements and often want you to slow them down so he can see them properly and make sure that you don't let go of one braking hand before the other is firmly grasping the rope, you would not pass the test with the 3-movement method, but that's just because testers are required to accept only their standard approved method.

Ha. Additional info from my daughters: the older one read the previous post and pointed out that she has in fact been belaying with the 3-movement method for some time (essentially since I first showed it to her) and that she likes it too. I'm used to her belaying me competently and don't pay much attention to how she does it so I had missed the switch altogether. The younger one said that she tried it but that it did not work well for her. When I taught her to belay about three years ago, I showed her to brake down and straight in front but over time, she started braking more on the right side. She also has not yet had more varied climbing experiences that might have required more flexibility in belaying and she said that the 3-movement method felt awkward to her.

Tom Cecil wrote:Sounds good but while there may be circumstances where the pros outweigh the cons ---belaying Trad climbs with a Gri Gri NOT recommended!!

Says who?

Top roping makes the sliding of the brake hand less secure. Try it on lead and then top rope and you'll understand why. The local gym which is very safety conscious will talk to folks who loosen the grip and slide the brake hand when top roping. When leading it's ok because you loosen the hand less on a non-floppy rope because the non brake hand is actively pulling slack and making the rope taut. I use different techniques for top rope and lead and am very pleased with the techniques I've been taught.

Petzl did a thing that said the fall forces on the gear is less if using an ATC therefore in one regard safer for trad climbing. Grigri is supposed to let the climber fall a little less far and can be safer if a ledge or decking is a threat.

Pontoon wrote:Petzl did a thing that said the fall forces on the gear is less if using an ATC therefore in one regard safer for trad climbing. Grigri is supposed to let the climber fall a little less far and can be safer if a ledge or decking is a threat.

The physics nerds can argue endlessly about the theoretically greater impact force a GriGri might impose on the system. Practically one of the major pros of using a GriGri trad climbing is because the leader still gets caught when the belayer in incapacitated (leader has dropped a rock the belayer's head). Not limited to trad.

Paul Deger wrote:I was just failed at gym today for using this technique (that I have successfully used - safely stopping countless falls over a 30 year climbing career). The argument given was "your brake hand is leaving the rope" - which is completely incorrect. .

Some gyms have specific guidelines as to what is acceptable for setups and belay technique. In the event that I step indoors to climb, I always ask questions with the staff to clarify any idiosyncrasies they might have.
I am their guest in their gym and I am their liability, so I am willing to yield my preferred method(s) to adapt to theirs.
I hope wherever the gym was, you were able to clear this up and get some laps in!
Cheers