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Belay technique discussion

Gabe Schwartz · · Hope Valley · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 5

What you described is exactly how I belay. I do it for a number of reasons. The first is what other people have mentioned; this is the method commonly used for lead belaying. I like to keep my methods consistent. Interestingly, this has caused me to "fail" a belay test at the gym and then the same night pass the lead belay test using the very same method. The second is that if your climber is climbing fast, you need a method that can draw rope in quickly, and I find most of the other methods cumbersome. Seriously though... this is top roping. Is there a such thing as a top rope fall that is difficult to catch? I can tell you with experience that if your grip is loosened and they fall, disaster does not happen. You just re-engage your grip and the fall is arrested. If you are paying attention, everything is all fine and good.

With all of that said, if I am belaying someone and they request that I belay a certain way... I belay that way, end of discussion. Again, top rope falls are really easy to catch. So I will do whatever they want, knowing that I will catch them either way. I might roll my eyes and think they are being ridiculous, but it is their life on the line, not mine.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

I do not find this acceptable. There is a difference between doing this when lead belaying vs a top rope. In one case you are feeding rope out (leading), while the other is pulling rope in (TR). When lead belaying and feeding out rope, you can keep a tight brake hand on the rope while feeding rope out with your guide/climber side hand. The guide hand and belay device keep enough tension on the rope to allow you to slide your brake hand and maintain a good grip on the rope. However, when pulling in rope during a TR, there is nothing to keep tension on the rope for the brake hand while resetting it. So if you do not use you guide hand to keep tension on the brake side, you need to effectively release the brake hand to slide it back toward the device. Same goes for taking in rope while lead belaying. IMO, what the OP is describing is sloppy and lazy.

christopher adams · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 0
Sarah K wrote:Recently I noticed a climbing partner doing something I think is totally dangerous while belaying. I approached him about it but he insisted he was belaying fine. I'd like anyone's input on this scenario. He was belaying top-rope with an ATC. When taking in rope, he held the rope with one hand above the belay device (climber strand) while he loosened his other hand on the break strand in order to slide it up towards the belay device. EDIT for clarification: I was able to see his hand opening up from about 90 feet away. I thought this was wrong because he is effectively letting go of the break strand. I thought he is not holding the break strand at all if his hand is loose enough to slide up without any force holding the end of the rope below (which usually comes by solidly holding the break end with their other hand below). I told him this was dangerous and asked him to please put his top hand below the break hand in order to slide his break hand up. For a short time he started doing it that way, and then he reverted back to doing it the way he was before. I held my breath until the climber was done climbing (I was at the top of the cliff and was shouting down to the belayer when I saw this happen, but didn't think of anything else I could do at the time). When I was able to talk with him face to face about it, he insisted that he would be able to tighten his grip and catch a fall if he felt a fall on his upper hand or saw the climber start falling. I just reiterated that I didn't think someone would be able to stop the rope once it started sliding and could he please, please not belay like that. He continued to disagree and said he wants to test it by dropping dead weights. I have no problem testing it out and would be willing to go try it together. He apparently has been lead belaying me like this without my knowing until now. He said he started doing it that way because there was no way to not short-rope me since I told him I don't like a lot of slack in the lead rope. I usually lead easy routes that have a ton of ledges, so I don't like a lot of slack in the line in those situations and have told him that in the past. What are your thoughts? Do you think someone could catch a fall with this belay technique? Do you know of any links to any videos of someone trying to stop a fall when they didn't have the rope tight? Or links to any discussion of this situation? Any recommendations on what I could do or say to him? Thank you.
I always make the sliding transition with a second hand on the brake strand regardless of the device I'm using or the style of climbing.

I cannot think of a reason why you would do it any other way other than laziness.

I'd be willing to bet that the style of belaying that you're describing has been responsible for a number of accidents. I bet the people probably insisted they were belaying correctly and just couldn't handle the fall. I'd also bet that if they did their transitions with a second hand locked on the brake strand, the accidents would have been prevented.
Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25

I move my left hand down to grip the brake strand when sliding my right for TR and for taking in slack on lead belay. That's just how I learned (stone summit in atl as someone mentioned above ;)).

That said I don't think the method you described is unsafe and I would rather have someone belay me that way than try to get them to use a method they aren't comfortable with (the switching hands thing can be kind of awkward until you get used to it).

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0

Climbers who have been climbing < 10 years and/or are gym rats are typically hung up on BUS techniques. More experienced/well versed folks are competent with slip slap slide techniques.

redlude97 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 5

Just so we are clear here in what is being described, the belayer skipping the "under" portion of BUS correct? The climber side hand never leaves the rope going up to the climber?

redlude97 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 5
Eric Engberg wrote:Climbers who have been climbing < 10 years and/or are gym rats are typically hung up on BUS techniques. More experienced/well versed folks are competent with slip slap slide techniques.
I've been climbing long enough to be competent in both BUS and Pinch and Slide, but I don't think the belayer is pinching the rope at all
Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

Why is there never any good rockfall around for the belay police when you need it?

amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20

Petzl has information video of how to belay using Reverso
How to Belay Leader
At minute 4 it discusses how to take in slack when the leader is approaching his top piece of protection after the clip, they demonstrate exactly the technique you mentioned.

Sarah K · · Boulder, CO · Joined May 2009 · Points: 80
redlude97 wrote:Just so we are clear here in what is being described, the belayer skipping the "under" portion of BUS correct? The climber side hand never leaves the rope going up to the climber?
I will try to describe it better. The brake hand (thanks for the correction above!) is under the ATC and the other hand never reaches underneath the brake hand to provide tension. Thus, the brake hand had to completely open up to move up closer to the ATC. The fingers are very loose and it appears the grip is not maintained on the rope in any way, although the fingers are still mostly encircling the rope. There was no pinch involved.

He used to always do the full PBUS method, and I think he started doing it the way described above pretty recently. I have never seen him do the slip, slap, slide method. He has also never dropped anyone.

This situation seems different from when the belayer is feeding slack to a leader, because the hand above the ATC is able to provide tension, and so the brake hand grip can still be a pretty firm grip.

I want to thank everyone who has taken time to share their thoughts here. I appreciate hearing others' perspectives so I can consider them. I don't want to be unreasonable but I want to feel safe as well, so this helps. Thank you. If we do a practice drop test I will post the results here.
Paula Cooper · · Denver, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 20
Eric Engberg wrote:Climbers who have been climbing < 10 years and/or are gym rats are typically hung up on BUS techniques. More experienced/well versed folks are competent with slip slap slide techniques.
True. I've only been climbing 4 years but I learned mostly from old school climbers. The first time I went outside, I used the lead belay technique I was taught in the gym. My partner (25+ years of experience) stopped me an said it made him nervous. He taught me the "slip slap slide" technique and it felt more intuitive. I've been using it ever since and I've never even come close to dropping my climber - even when they're projecting or taking unexpected whippers.

However, it does seem as though the belayer in the OP's description was loosening his grip too much. He needs to have someone experienced with the technique teach him how to do it properly.
camhead · · Vandalia, Appalachia · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,240

Today on mountainproject I saw a climber blatantly misusing the English language. She kept saying "break" hand instead of "brake" hand! I approached her and politely informed her of her incorrect spelling, but she just kept typing it over and over again– break, break, break, break!

Finally I lost my cool and informed her that I would break her hand if she did not step away from the computer. That's when the mp admins banned me for being a jerk.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

one of the main issues i have with the technique where you bring your upper hand below your brake hand to momentarily hold it while you slide your brake hand up to the new position is that it takes you out of an athletic position and puts you in an awkward position.

have you ever seen someone catch a fall when they have their spare hand below the brake hand instead of above the device? as they lose balance their instinct is to immediately take their hand off and either reach forward or reach up and grab the upper section of rope. i have seen people come perilously close to dropping TR climbers several times in this exact scenario.

i think someone else already mentioned it, but you should be able to catch a TR fall pretty easily with your hand on the upper rope (yes you read that correctly). the upper hand can easily provide a primary catch while the brake hand clamps down. if a person can't do this, they just don't have what it takes to belay (or climb for that matter). belaying has a LOT more to do with competence than it does blindly following some convoluted process. end of story.

camhead · · Vandalia, Appalachia · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,240
slim wrote:...you should be able to catch a TR fall pretty easily with your hand on the upper rope (yes you read that correctly). the upper hand can easily provide a primary catch while the brake hand clamps down. if a person can't do this, they just don't have what it takes to belay (or climb for that matter). belaying has a LOT more to do with competence than it does blindly following some convoluted process. end of story.
Yes, especially since most gyms double-wrap the rope around the top anchor bars, providing even more resistance.

FWIW, I don't really think there is much wrong with the technique that the OP observed.
Gabe Schwartz · · Hope Valley · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 5
slim wrote:one of the main issues i have with the technique where you bring your upper hand below your brake hand to momentarily hold it while you slide your brake hand up to the new position is that it takes you out of an athletic position and puts you in an awkward position. have you ever seen someone catch a fall when they have their spare hand below the brake hand instead of above the device? as they lose balance their instinct is to immediately take their hand off and either reach forward or reach up and grab the upper section of rope. i have seen people come perilously close to dropping TR climbers several times in this exact scenario. i think someone else already mentioned it, but you should be able to catch a TR fall pretty easily with your hand on the upper rope (yes you read that correctly). the upper hand can easily provide a primary catch while the brake hand clamps down. if a person can't do this, they just don't have what it takes to belay (or climb for that matter). belaying has a LOT more to do with competence than it does blindly following some convoluted process. end of story.
I pretty much agree with everything slim says. To the point where I was typing out another response but was pretty much just retyping what he said.

Also, from above. "I'd be willing to bet that the style of belaying that you're describing has been responsible for a number of accidents. I bet the people probably insisted they were belaying correctly and just couldn't handle the fall. I'd also bet that if they did their transitions with a second hand locked on the brake strand, the accidents would have been prevented."

I would argue that the number is very small and that somewhere around 100% of those accidents were caused by the lack of experience of the belayer than anything else. Again... it's top rope. The fall practically catches itself.
Rob Cotter · · Silverthorne, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 240

If this makes you uncomfortable and you view this person's technique as unsafe then YOU are not obligated to climb with this person belaying you. Direct observation and judgement counts for a good deal in this sport, the ground is very hard and unforgiving and man does it come up at you fast...

Brad J · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 471

The important part of these belay discussions is the critical examination of your own technique because you're probably not going to change anyone's mind.

Yes, you can hold a top rope fall with your hand on the climber side of the belay device. I don't recommend that as a belay style but you can catch a fall.

The OP saw something that concerned her, expressed this concern, asked for the belayer to change. He wouldn't so she came here to ask for opinions from more experienced climbers. Here's mine: Although I've been using the slap and slide method for 25 years and will continue to do so, if you had a strong preference I would honor that. Part of developing YOUR climbing community is finding people that are compatible and will listen.

I think most people gravitate to the S&S over time. It works better in a wider range of conditions than anything else and experience has shown it to be safe

The most important thing I do at the crag is taking consummate care of the life that was entrusted to me. Every thing else is secondary.

Brad

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I know at least five different hand sequences and use four of them, depending on circumstances.

The one I don't use is the pinch and slide technique in which the brake strand is brought up parallel to the load strand and held there while the brake hand slides back. This is an artifact of the hand motions for the hip belay which puts the device in non-braking mode for a second or so every stroke. The fact that "the brake hand never leaves the brake strand" is of little consolation, considering that no braking action is available. This illustrates how worthless authoritarian pronouncements can be (more examples to follow).

I often just slide my brake hand up the brake strand. The issue is how much slack has just been taken in. If you are pulling in small amounts from a climber who is making small movements, so that the brake hand only has to slide a few inches back up the brake strand, then I think the technique is perfectly safe.

If, on the other hand, my climber is moving fast or making big movements, requiring me to pull in a lot of slack in a given stroke, then I bring my non-brake hand down below the brake hand to tension the brake strand while the brake hand moves back up for the next pull.

Of course, some belayers are forced to take in big amounts of slack when small adjustments would have worked because they aren't paying attention. Not paying attention is a much graver problem than any of the standard hand position techniques.

A lot of Brits bring the non-brake hand down to anchor the brake strand but grab the strand above their brake hand, which is less awkward if the brake hand is down by the hip. They then let go (oh horrors!) with the brake hand and reposition it up next to the device. I do this occasionally if I've pulled in a particularly big armload of slack. Even though the rope is always being braked by a hand, the fact that the sacrosanct brake hand has been removed from the rope causes some Americans to have apoplectic fits of pseudo-religious intolerance.

Very occasionally, I'll pull the rope through the device hand over hand. Almost never for the slingshot toprope belay, but sometimes when trying to keep up with a second who is flying up the rock.

If I'm climbing with someone who doesn't want me to use one of these techniques, no problem, I can use one of the others.

amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20
rgold wrote:I know at least five different hand sequences and use four of them, depending on circumstances.
Sort of amusing to see an analysis from a person with more than two brain cells!
Whichever way one puts it, when a tube style device is used, there must be a interval of time when no braking force is applied to the system. If I had spare time, a research assistant, and had changed air in my spare tire, I would definitely be interested in filming clips of experienced climbers using mentioned techniques and evaluating cycle of duty when the climber is in potential free fall. Heck, I would even calculate the statistical significance, not because I am the sort of person to do, but because I know how.

I got to say - the less one knows, the fewer options are for him or her to consider and understand. I coach a different sport for kicks and giggles, it is amazing how the attitude towards the "correct way" of accomplishing something changes once they achieve a certain training/certification level. When driving for extended periods of times I sometimes feel the Dunning-Kruger effect has a threshold of knowledge measure, but I am no social scientist enough to investigate it.
David Gibbs · · Ottawa, ON · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2

I've seen one general principle mentioned: always have a hand on the brake side of the rope. I've not noticed another important general principle -- though rgold alludes to it -- have the brake-strand out of brake position for the minimum amount of time. The pinch & slide method violates this 2nd principle.

As with rgold, I will use a variety of techniques and motions, depending on how much rope I'm moving, and how/where I'm positioned. Sometimes I'll brake with my right hand, sometimes with my left. I find especially at an anchor on a multi-pitch climb, that being locked into only one movement can be really awkward depending on how things are setup.

One motion sequence I've not seen discussed is an alternating brake-hand motion. I find this is most helpful for pulling in large amounts of slack. Essentially it is:
Brake-hand starts near belay device, other hand high on rope.
Brake-hand up, pulling in rope while other hand pulls down rope.
Brake-hand down to brake position.
Other hand grabs brake-rope near belay device, becomes brake-hand.
Former brake-hand grabs climber-side rope high, becomes other hand.
Repeat.

This is, actually, one step shorter than the normal motion, but alternates which hand is brake hand. Always has a hand on the brake strand, pulls rope in quickly when needed, and always has a hand holding the brake strand. Of course, you have to be comfortable doing things left & right handed -- but that's pretty important for climbing anyway.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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