Belay technique discussion
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What you described is exactly how I belay. I do it for a number of reasons. The first is what other people have mentioned; this is the method commonly used for lead belaying. I like to keep my methods consistent. Interestingly, this has caused me to "fail" a belay test at the gym and then the same night pass the lead belay test using the very same method. The second is that if your climber is climbing fast, you need a method that can draw rope in quickly, and I find most of the other methods cumbersome. Seriously though... this is top roping. Is there a such thing as a top rope fall that is difficult to catch? I can tell you with experience that if your grip is loosened and they fall, disaster does not happen. You just re-engage your grip and the fall is arrested. If you are paying attention, everything is all fine and good. |
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I do not find this acceptable. There is a difference between doing this when lead belaying vs a top rope. In one case you are feeding rope out (leading), while the other is pulling rope in (TR). When lead belaying and feeding out rope, you can keep a tight brake hand on the rope while feeding rope out with your guide/climber side hand. The guide hand and belay device keep enough tension on the rope to allow you to slide your brake hand and maintain a good grip on the rope. However, when pulling in rope during a TR, there is nothing to keep tension on the rope for the brake hand while resetting it. So if you do not use you guide hand to keep tension on the brake side, you need to effectively release the brake hand to slide it back toward the device. Same goes for taking in rope while lead belaying. IMO, what the OP is describing is sloppy and lazy. |
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Sarah K wrote:Recently I noticed a climbing partner doing something I think is totally dangerous while belaying. I approached him about it but he insisted he was belaying fine. I'd like anyone's input on this scenario. He was belaying top-rope with an ATC. When taking in rope, he held the rope with one hand above the belay device (climber strand) while he loosened his other hand on the break strand in order to slide it up towards the belay device. EDIT for clarification: I was able to see his hand opening up from about 90 feet away. I thought this was wrong because he is effectively letting go of the break strand. I thought he is not holding the break strand at all if his hand is loose enough to slide up without any force holding the end of the rope below (which usually comes by solidly holding the break end with their other hand below). I told him this was dangerous and asked him to please put his top hand below the break hand in order to slide his break hand up. For a short time he started doing it that way, and then he reverted back to doing it the way he was before. I held my breath until the climber was done climbing (I was at the top of the cliff and was shouting down to the belayer when I saw this happen, but didn't think of anything else I could do at the time). When I was able to talk with him face to face about it, he insisted that he would be able to tighten his grip and catch a fall if he felt a fall on his upper hand or saw the climber start falling. I just reiterated that I didn't think someone would be able to stop the rope once it started sliding and could he please, please not belay like that. He continued to disagree and said he wants to test it by dropping dead weights. I have no problem testing it out and would be willing to go try it together. He apparently has been lead belaying me like this without my knowing until now. He said he started doing it that way because there was no way to not short-rope me since I told him I don't like a lot of slack in the lead rope. I usually lead easy routes that have a ton of ledges, so I don't like a lot of slack in the line in those situations and have told him that in the past. What are your thoughts? Do you think someone could catch a fall with this belay technique? Do you know of any links to any videos of someone trying to stop a fall when they didn't have the rope tight? Or links to any discussion of this situation? Any recommendations on what I could do or say to him? Thank you.I always make the sliding transition with a second hand on the brake strand regardless of the device I'm using or the style of climbing. I cannot think of a reason why you would do it any other way other than laziness. I'd be willing to bet that the style of belaying that you're describing has been responsible for a number of accidents. I bet the people probably insisted they were belaying correctly and just couldn't handle the fall. I'd also bet that if they did their transitions with a second hand locked on the brake strand, the accidents would have been prevented. |
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I move my left hand down to grip the brake strand when sliding my right for TR and for taking in slack on lead belay. That's just how I learned (stone summit in atl as someone mentioned above ;)). |
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Climbers who have been climbing < 10 years and/or are gym rats are typically hung up on BUS techniques. More experienced/well versed folks are competent with slip slap slide techniques. |
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Just so we are clear here in what is being described, the belayer skipping the "under" portion of BUS correct? The climber side hand never leaves the rope going up to the climber? |
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Eric Engberg wrote:Climbers who have been climbing < 10 years and/or are gym rats are typically hung up on BUS techniques. More experienced/well versed folks are competent with slip slap slide techniques.I've been climbing long enough to be competent in both BUS and Pinch and Slide, but I don't think the belayer is pinching the rope at all |
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Why is there never any good rockfall around for the belay police when you need it? |
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Petzl has information video of how to belay using Reverso |
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redlude97 wrote:Just so we are clear here in what is being described, the belayer skipping the "under" portion of BUS correct? The climber side hand never leaves the rope going up to the climber?I will try to describe it better. The brake hand (thanks for the correction above!) is under the ATC and the other hand never reaches underneath the brake hand to provide tension. Thus, the brake hand had to completely open up to move up closer to the ATC. The fingers are very loose and it appears the grip is not maintained on the rope in any way, although the fingers are still mostly encircling the rope. There was no pinch involved. He used to always do the full PBUS method, and I think he started doing it the way described above pretty recently. I have never seen him do the slip, slap, slide method. He has also never dropped anyone. This situation seems different from when the belayer is feeding slack to a leader, because the hand above the ATC is able to provide tension, and so the brake hand grip can still be a pretty firm grip. I want to thank everyone who has taken time to share their thoughts here. I appreciate hearing others' perspectives so I can consider them. I don't want to be unreasonable but I want to feel safe as well, so this helps. Thank you. If we do a practice drop test I will post the results here. |
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Eric Engberg wrote:Climbers who have been climbing < 10 years and/or are gym rats are typically hung up on BUS techniques. More experienced/well versed folks are competent with slip slap slide techniques.True. I've only been climbing 4 years but I learned mostly from old school climbers. The first time I went outside, I used the lead belay technique I was taught in the gym. My partner (25+ years of experience) stopped me an said it made him nervous. He taught me the "slip slap slide" technique and it felt more intuitive. I've been using it ever since and I've never even come close to dropping my climber - even when they're projecting or taking unexpected whippers. However, it does seem as though the belayer in the OP's description was loosening his grip too much. He needs to have someone experienced with the technique teach him how to do it properly. |
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Today on mountainproject I saw a climber blatantly misusing the English language. She kept saying "break" hand instead of "brake" hand! I approached her and politely informed her of her incorrect spelling, but she just kept typing it over and over again break, break, break, break! |
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one of the main issues i have with the technique where you bring your upper hand below your brake hand to momentarily hold it while you slide your brake hand up to the new position is that it takes you out of an athletic position and puts you in an awkward position. |
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slim wrote:...you should be able to catch a TR fall pretty easily with your hand on the upper rope (yes you read that correctly). the upper hand can easily provide a primary catch while the brake hand clamps down. if a person can't do this, they just don't have what it takes to belay (or climb for that matter). belaying has a LOT more to do with competence than it does blindly following some convoluted process. end of story.Yes, especially since most gyms double-wrap the rope around the top anchor bars, providing even more resistance. FWIW, I don't really think there is much wrong with the technique that the OP observed. |
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slim wrote:one of the main issues i have with the technique where you bring your upper hand below your brake hand to momentarily hold it while you slide your brake hand up to the new position is that it takes you out of an athletic position and puts you in an awkward position. have you ever seen someone catch a fall when they have their spare hand below the brake hand instead of above the device? as they lose balance their instinct is to immediately take their hand off and either reach forward or reach up and grab the upper section of rope. i have seen people come perilously close to dropping TR climbers several times in this exact scenario. i think someone else already mentioned it, but you should be able to catch a TR fall pretty easily with your hand on the upper rope (yes you read that correctly). the upper hand can easily provide a primary catch while the brake hand clamps down. if a person can't do this, they just don't have what it takes to belay (or climb for that matter). belaying has a LOT more to do with competence than it does blindly following some convoluted process. end of story.I pretty much agree with everything slim says. To the point where I was typing out another response but was pretty much just retyping what he said. Also, from above. "I'd be willing to bet that the style of belaying that you're describing has been responsible for a number of accidents. I bet the people probably insisted they were belaying correctly and just couldn't handle the fall. I'd also bet that if they did their transitions with a second hand locked on the brake strand, the accidents would have been prevented." I would argue that the number is very small and that somewhere around 100% of those accidents were caused by the lack of experience of the belayer than anything else. Again... it's top rope. The fall practically catches itself. |
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If this makes you uncomfortable and you view this person's technique as unsafe then YOU are not obligated to climb with this person belaying you. Direct observation and judgement counts for a good deal in this sport, the ground is very hard and unforgiving and man does it come up at you fast... |
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The important part of these belay discussions is the critical examination of your own technique because you're probably not going to change anyone's mind. |
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I know at least five different hand sequences and use four of them, depending on circumstances. |
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rgold wrote:I know at least five different hand sequences and use four of them, depending on circumstances.Sort of amusing to see an analysis from a person with more than two brain cells! Whichever way one puts it, when a tube style device is used, there must be a interval of time when no braking force is applied to the system. If I had spare time, a research assistant, and had changed air in my spare tire, I would definitely be interested in filming clips of experienced climbers using mentioned techniques and evaluating cycle of duty when the climber is in potential free fall. Heck, I would even calculate the statistical significance, not because I am the sort of person to do, but because I know how. I got to say - the less one knows, the fewer options are for him or her to consider and understand. I coach a different sport for kicks and giggles, it is amazing how the attitude towards the "correct way" of accomplishing something changes once they achieve a certain training/certification level. When driving for extended periods of times I sometimes feel the Dunning-Kruger effect has a threshold of knowledge measure, but I am no social scientist enough to investigate it. |
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I've seen one general principle mentioned: always have a hand on the brake side of the rope. I've not noticed another important general principle -- though rgold alludes to it -- have the brake-strand out of brake position for the minimum amount of time. The pinch & slide method violates this 2nd principle. |