Belay technique discussion
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Recently I noticed a climbing partner doing something I think is totally dangerous while belaying. I approached him about it but he insisted he was belaying fine. I'd like anyone's input on this scenario. |
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I wouldn't let him belay me using that technique on top-rope, simply put, he's doing exactly what you said, letting go of the break strand. He should do exactly what you said, put his hand below the other as he loosens his grip and slides his hand up the rope. That does however, sound pretty standard for a lead belay, as there really isn't another way to feed rope unless your pulling from the top.. Understanding the proper use of each technique, as well as the ability to adjust to the safest method in different situations is important... |
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What you describe is a common belay technique, for both lead and TR. Most of the friction and holding power comes from the bends in the rope going through the device and around the belay biner, not from a hard grip on the rope. In the event of a fall, a properly attentive belayer should easily be able to grab the rope and tighten up sufficiently even if his or her hand is loose and sliding up the rope at the moment of the fall. |
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John Wilder wrote:Definitely not ideal for a top rope belay, I'd be concerned about catching ability on a skinny line. Sounds fine for a lead belay, though, as I'm not sure how else you would feed slack with an atc.why would it not be ok for a TR belay if it is ok for a lead belay? this method has been used for ages and is a lot better than the crappy method i still see taught at gyms all over the place (where you pull the rope up parallel to the other, slide your hand etc, all while the rope is in a non-brake position). at least with the sliding method you can keep the rope pretty much in the brake position all of the time. |
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Buy him a gri-gri for his birthday. |
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Belaying is a very serious responsibility. If your belayer cannot belay in a method that adheres to your satisfaction, you have 2-choices: Have someone give him a back up belay or don't climb with him. |
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Linnaeus wrote:What you describe is a common belay technique, for both lead and TR.Agreed. This is how I learned to lead belay and now use it for TR (although I will use the "waterfall" if I have to take in a lot of slack quickly). Your brake hand loosens SLIGHTLY as it slides, but is never taken off the rope. You only need to tighten your grip to brake. With that said, it's a common technique and if it makes you uncomfortable you should discuss the belay with your partner before getting on a climb, especially on lead. Climbing is scary enough without wondering if you can trust your belayer. |
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javd wrote:Buy him a gri-gri for his birthday.Gri Gri's are still not a "hands free" device! This might just be the 75-100$ gift that kills Sarah! |
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Linnaeus wrote:What you describe is a common belay technique, for both lead and TR.This might be a "common belay technique" however it violates Rule #1 in elementary belay principles. Most common way to belay without letting go of the brake strand: Pull the rope up with your brake hand as you simultaneously pull the rope down with your other hand, then brake the rope down under your brake device. Take your non-brake hand and firmly grasp the rope under the belay device, then slide your brake hand up against that hand. Repeat this process. |
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From what I'm gathering, this method is called the "European belay" (a climber much better than me said this term, not me). I've seen a hand full of climbers in the gym visiting from overseas belay this way and get failed on a belay test. |
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His belay technique sounds fine. FWIW, I'm far from lax about safety in climbing. I'm very picky about my belayers, I wear my helmet, etc. and I would be fine with him belaying me in that style as long as he's an attentive belayer. That's the most important thing to me, is that the belayer is paying attention to what's going on. |
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Short answer: I'm definitely OK with your friends belay method. |
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slim wrote: why would it not be ok for a TR belay if it is ok for a lead belay?Well, nothing in this thread makes any sense, so why not? In theory, you can TR & lead belay with an "always on" break hand by interchanging your hands (if you need to move your right hand, grab the break side w/ your left hand first). I was forced to do this at Stone Summit (had a conference in ATL) or I wasn't passing the belay test (there were no requirements on how I actually belayed post test or I'd have asked for a refund & just left). Reminded me to never move to ATL. |
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I would buy him an Edelrid Mega Jul. I think most belaying accidents come from distractions while belaying. |
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Abram Herman wrote: "I didn't think someone would be able to stop the rope once it started sliding" Have you ever rappelled?Rappelling is more analogous to lowering a climber, not to catching their fall. Unless you rappel by leaning back off the ledge first and then quickly grabbing the rope. That technique doesn't sit right with me - though I'd be interested to hear what you learn if you do try it out with weights. For me, the difference between sliding your brake hand while lead belaying and sliding your brake hand while TR belaying is that when feeding slack out, you slide along the rope back away from the belay device, and the belay device is providing some resistance so it's easy to slide your hand away without loosening your grip much. For TR, you are sliding your hand back toward the belay device, so without your other hand holding the rope underneath, or anything else providing resistance, you have to loosen your grip a lot more to slide up. Maybe that's a significant difference, maybe it's not. The bottom line for me though is if you can do something significantly safer with minimal extra effort, why not do it? The other point, that you need to be able to trust your partner and you both need to feel comfortable with each other's techniques and skills, is not one to take lightly. If he offered to go test it out, it sounds like he's keeping an open mind at least. |
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roger fritz from rockford, IL wrote: Gri Gri's are still not a "hands free" device!Really? I have this all wrong. In all seriousness Sarah... If you're not 100% comfortable with your belayer, don't let him or her belay for you. Best case scenario, you're worried about your belayer and can't concentrate on what you're doing. I learned this lesson the hard way and ended up sidelined with an injury for a month+ and took longer to regain confidence in myself. |
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If the ring between his index finger and his thumb never opens this belay technique is perfectly safe. The natural tendency when faced with something startling is to grip harder. If his hand has never left the rope (as evidenced by the closed ring between the thumb and finger) then the natural reaction will be the correct one and the climber will not fall. Because this is also the technique that you must use while belaying a leader (time being much more critical) it makes sense to use/perfect the technique while top-roping.
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It's "brake hand", not "break hand". |
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Definitely harder to belay if either hand is broken |
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You could settle the issue if you do the test. |