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New Alpinism

James Bellamy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 10

Getting back to the book - I have a question about the training cycle, and the transition period.

The book speaks of gradually entering every cycle, then ramping up activity.

Question:

If I just want to maintain good general climbing fitness (with no huge specific climbing objective in mind) - what should my training cycle look like? How many months/weeks should I continue without giving myself a rest week, or lower activity week?

Lets say I just want to be a good rock climber and do some alpine rock days (grand teton, east butt of whitney, etc) but I don't plan on going after Denali or anything major that year.

What's the best way that you all have found - to organize your training schedule for general mountain fitness?

Thanks! Learning a ton in this thread.

Alexander Blum · · Livermore, CA · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 143
James Bellamy wrote: What's the best way that you all have found - to organize your training schedule for general mountain fitness?
In my highly individual personal experience I run into two problems here. The first one is that general mountain fitness is a really vague thing, so that makes it hard to develop any sort of training plan based around it. Second, I cannot get motivated by the vague goal of "Getting fit", if there is not a goal, some kind of carrot dangling at the end of the stick, there is no way in hell I am sticking with the training day in, day out, even when it sucks.

All that being said, the best way to keep "general mountain fitness would probably be to do 3-4 week cycles, building volume until you "over-reach" a bit for training effect, then pulling back and ramping up again.
Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45

James: I go for longer cycles than Alexander. Each is several months long. I try to stay in a sort of moderate “all around fitness” state year round, but I cycle through different aspects that I prioritize. I cycle priorities in the following things: strength, hill climbing/hiking ability, rock climbing ability, speed walking speed and endurance, lactate threshold running (like for 10K races, or 90 minute hill climb races), or longer distance running. In any one month, I do a little bit of everything, but I do a lot of (usually) two of those things.

If I get an invite, or have a plan for a specific mountain climb, that goal would pre-empt everything else, and I’d start wearing boots everywhere, doing weighted hill climbs, etc. If I make plans for a rock climbing vacation, I’d switch my two priorities to climbing and strength training. When I have a 10K race coming up, one of my two priorities becomes lactate turnpoint workouts (zone 3 in Daniels’, and also the House and Johnson books). For months before my yearly 24 hour race at “Across the Years” in Phoenix, I make sure that one of my two priorities is to practice speed walking.

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450

A cool thing about this book is that they give you enough of an intellectual framework that you can tailor it to your own goals pretty well.

For myself, I've got so many opportunities to get on the rock right now that the alpine stuff is kind of taking a back seat...I'm picturing that when the weather is stopping me from climbing as much that the alpine training will be a great way to maintain a psych and build general fitness through the winter, with more focused gym and hangboard workouts to maintain the rock fitness.

James Bellamy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 10

@Tom

That sounds like a great general guideline. I am working on Zone 1 and went back up to Tahquitz today - I was able to keep my HR at 130bpm for most of the hike up, and really wasn't going that much slower - but I did slow it down.

I have calculated my MHR to be 188bpm - so that puts my range at about 103 to 141bpm for Zone 1. I am 31 years of age.

Do you recommend staying at the lower end of that threshold, in the middle, at the top - or does it matter?

Also - what type of recovery do you generally do - do you do a light jog, or some easy cardio/play with the kids type thing? I usually take a day off when I feel sore - but if I'm feeling good the next day - I will hit it hard again. I fear that maybe I should rest more but just don't know it - and have been tired for a while but just think that's the norm.

James

P.S. - I know the book covers some of these questions but I find it helpful to bounce the same questions off of educated members to get different ideas that work for different people.

Getoutside · · Golden, CO · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 0

@ James

I want to say that I appreciate this thread, I have been following it for a couple of months and it has been informative and interesting to read. I don't want to Hijack this conversation, and I only mention James because I am curious about one aspect that we have all been using to some extent, and James mentioned it - Max Heart Rate (MHR).

Reading this I am surprised that James' MHR is 188. I am assuming, since this is 220 - James' age, that he is using the standard formula.

Have other people done the test recommended in the book? Doing it myself I found my actual measured MHR to be 9 beats higher than the formula. Did they find the same thing? That difference allows me to stay in Zone 1 until 150 instead of 143. That's a big difference to me.

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45
James Bellamy wrote:@Tom That sounds like a great general guideline. I am working on Zone 1 and went back up to Tahquitz today - I was able to keep my HR at 130bpm for most of the hike up, and really wasn't going that much slower - but I did slow it down. I have calculated my MHR to be 188bpm - so that puts my range at about 103 to 141bpm for Zone 1. I am 31 years of age. Do you recommend staying at the lower end of that threshold, in the middle, at the top - or does it matter? Also - what type of recovery do you generally do - do you do a light jog, or some easy cardio/play with the kids type thing? I usually take a day off when I feel sore - but if I'm feeling good the next day - I will hit it hard again. I fear that maybe I should rest more but just don't know it - and have been tired for a while but just think that's the norm. James P.S. - I know the book covers some of these questions but I find it helpful to bounce the same questions off of educated members to get different ideas that work for different people.
Im assuming that you meant to say ".. lower end of that range, rather than threshold.
Zone 1 is huge. I use the lower half of it for recovery workouts, warmups, and cooldowns. Downhill hiking usually ends up there as well, even I'm pushing the pace. For me, easy running is in the upper half of zone 1.
As far as "where in the zone you should be," it depends on your overall schedule. You get more benefit by going higher in the zone, but the benefit isn't proportional to the fatigue caused (and recovery time necessary). If you are short on time (like if you wish that you had more hours per week to put into this stuff), then working out higher in the zone (or even in zone 2) will give you more benefits. But, if you have plenty of time and your volume limit is presently due to fatigue shortening your workouts, and/or needing a lot of time to recover between workouts, it is better to go lower in the zone and put in more time.
You burn more fat (absolute, not percentage wise), at increasing intensities up until the bottom of zone 3. At that point, the presence of lactate inhibits lipolysis and you start training completely different systems, producing different enzymes etc.
Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45
J.Colin.Olson wrote:@ James I want to say that I appreciate this thread, I have been following it for a couple of months and it has been informative and interesting to read. I don't want to Hijack this conversation, and I only mention James because I am curious about one aspect that we have all been using to some extent, and James mentioned it - Max Heart Rate (MHR). Reading this I am surprised that James' MHR is 188. I am assuming, since this is 220 - James' age, that he is using the standard formula. Have other people done the test recommended in the book? Doing it myself I found my actual measured MHR to be 9 beats higher than the formula. Did they find the same thing? That difference allows me to stay in Zone 1 until 150 instead of 143. That's a big difference to me.
Yes. The age formula can be way off. Measuring you max isn't that easy either, and it gets harder to do the older you get (due to longer required warmup times, and some other reasons).
In an untrained, or lightly trained person, their perceived exertion scale relates to their heart rate scale differently than in competitive athletes in their prime season. In other words a regular guy may feel like he is dying, but still just be at 90 to 95% of his "true" max. Certain types of training (especially VO2max intervals) shift your perceived exertion scale so that you can stay closer to your max hr, for sustained periods. That also makes it easier to measure your true max accurately. Your max hasn't actually shifted, but when you measure it, it will seem to have gone up.
When I was 51, I measured my max at 184 bpm. I'm 54 now, haven't measured it lately, and use 182 for purposes of my calculations and data entry for my HRM watch.
jaredj · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 165

This max HR stuff is tricky business. I think it's helpful to not think about it as a simple estimation problem where you apply formula X or do test Y, and out pops a number. That can happen under the right circumstances, I suppose.

A far better approach to setting your HR zones (in my experience) is to accept that at the beginning, you're guessing. Starting with a formula or something and trying it out is helpful. But finding HR zones for what zone 2, zone 3, or zone 4 should be is probably best done as a trial-and-error exercise. My rule of thumb is that my zone 4 midpoint HR for hiking / running is 5-6 bpm lower than my average / median HR in a running race 10k (or any other effort of 30-45 min where I'm highly motivated). My zone 3 midpoint seems to be about 10 bpm below that. The upper end of my zone 2 ends up being another 10 bpm below that.

For reference, I have no idea what my max HR is. But based on trial and error / feel, seems like my zone 4 midpoint is 172-178, midpoint of zone 3 is around 160-163, and the upper end of zone is l50-152ish.

You aren't gonna have horrible training feedback if you approach the exercise as a trial-and-error thing (as opposed to this top-down estimation from a single point estimate of max HR). It also (in my opinion) gives you an opportunity to focus hard on other physical sensation feedback to "map" to percieved exertion and HR levels. This 'intuition' is way more useful than just HR in my opinion.

Now if only there was a hiking / running equivalent of the power meters available on bikes for some real data....

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45

@jaredj: Yeah; power meters would help a lot! Many bikers who have them base everything on their power output at lactate turnpoint. That usually makes more sense than using fractions of max heart rate.

Anyone interested in some of the big US mountain races? Right now, people are attempting "Nolan's 14." They have 60 hours to do as many 14,000 footers in the Sawatch Range of CO. There are 14 of them which can be linked together in about 100 miles of foot travel. No-one has completed them all in previous years. It might happen this year though.

14ers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.…

This fellow is on the course right now. His post has links to general information sites about the N14, and also links to his GPS if you want to follow along with him. Make sure you try the mahoney link. That has all the maps and elevation profiles etc. I've met Mahoney a couple times (at the Hardrock 100). He is quite the character, and is a really good record keeper. His personal site is just chock full of detailed ultraendurance data.
There are probably some twitter type reports going on too, but I haven't found them.

Rui Leal · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 0

Hi all,

Just found this forum while searching for info on the training methods in the book.

I would like to know how I should deal with cardiac drift while trying to stay in Zone 1.
- Keep the same pace / effort used before drift starts even if this takes me out of Zone 1
- Start with a slower pace / effort to account for drift later on
- Reduce pace / effort as necessary to stay in Zone 1

Opinions?

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
rleal wrote:Hi all, Just found this forum while searching for info on the training methods in the book. I would like to know how I should deal with cardiac drift while trying to stay in Zone 1. - Keep the same pace / effort used before drift starts even if this takes me out of Zone 1 - Start with a slower pace / effort to account for drift later on - Reduce pace / effort as necessary to stay in Zone 1 Opinions?
I don't actually know the answer to this question, but here is my "logical" answer, with the caveat that there are a ton of "logical" solutions in physiology and training that are wrong...

a) To me, the goal of zone 1 training is to supply your muscles with enough blood that they can remain fully aerobic.
b)My understanding is that if your heart is beating above a certain rate, it is because the oxygen demand of the tissues is exceeding the oxygen supply available from the heart and lungs.
c)So in order to get the desired zone 1 training effect, you have to slow your heart down.

If you can run early when it's cooler that might help a lot, I've been noticing that the temperature has a huge effect on my pulse.

Lastly, the New Alpinism book does advise using the entire range of Zone 1 (60-75% of max HR or whatever it is), and I basically never do this because it doesn't "feel" like real exercise, and also I can't do anything resembling running at less than about 67%. However, I'll bet it's a mistake that I'm doing this. Hiking (if you have that available) seems like it's a lot more "tunable" to lower HR percentages, and you might try that...you'd still be drifting, but instead it'd be from 56% to 68% so you wouldn't mind as much. Biking probably would work the same, but House and Johnston seem less psyched about bikes.
James Bellamy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 10

I've had the same problem with heart rate spiking on hot days. You really have to slow your pace to almost a hike a lot of the times if you want to stay in zone 1. Even shirtless here in southern california, I find it hard (in the summer months) to avoid the drift in hot weather.

As for cycling, I don't think they're anti-cycling - but they present the opinion that hiking/trail running is a better form of training for alpine climbing. Rightly so - it's more of a full body weight bearing activity. In cycling, you're sitting down and not bearing the entirety of your weight.

That said - I cycle for about 30% of my zone 1 activity because it's better on my body. I have degenerative lower back arthritis and my back often can't handle the longer runs at a sustained pace.

J

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45
rleal wrote:Hi all, Just found this forum while searching for info on the training methods in the book. I would like to know how I should deal with cardiac drift while trying to stay in Zone 1. - Keep the same pace / effort used before drift starts even if this takes me out of Zone 1 - Start with a slower pace / effort to account for drift later on - Reduce pace / effort as necessary to stay in Zone 1 Opinions?
Zones are based on “intensity,” and heart rate is just being used as a surrogate because the actual intensity is often hard to measure (especially during outdoor recreation activities).
House and Johnston use “The Muscle Power Model,” described on pg. 120. That puts even more importance on the peripheral muscles rather than the heart and lungs.
So, I’m suggesting that (for defining intensity zones) they would say that what is most important is what is going on in the muscles. Things like how much work they are doing, how much oxygen they are using, how many calories they are burning, and the ratio of fat/glycogen they are using etc.
Based on that, you shouldn’t lessen the intensity, just because your heart rate has drifted upwards.
Using heart rates to approximate intensities is somewhat error prone, but sometimes it is all we have. But, just remember that heart rates aren’t the actual goal of the workout. Otherwise, we could just drink a bunch of coffee and ride roller coasters to get in shape!
Rui Leal · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 0

Thanks for your replies.
I've been reading about cardiac drift (first heard the term in this thread, but it does describe what I experience especially when running in hot weather), and most people recommend that you find a pace / effort where your HR is stable and within your desired zone and keep that pace.
That's what I've been doing, I keep the same pace and take notice of my breathing and perceived effort.

How long have you guys been following the principles in the book? Have you noticed good results?

Jonny d · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 40

Rui,

I'm in the middle of Week 15 of Base Period. If by "results," you mean increased endurance, I can relate that I went on an hour-and-a-half Zone 1 run last Friday and felt like I could easily have kept that going for the foreseeable future without "hitting the wall." It's anecdotal, but I believe that the model outlined in the book has been very effective in building up my endurance levels.

Jonny d

venture160 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 0

I completed about 3 months of the "base period" training earlier this year for a mountaineering trip in Colorado. With a heart rate monitor, its very easy to track noticeable progress ie watching your average pace times for zone 1-3 runs or other aerobic activity drop markedly over time. I started out being only keep a 8:15 minute pace on Z2 runs, and three months later I could maintain a Z2 run (around 155 bpm) at 7:15 a minute for 90+ minutes and felt great.

I am now re-starting from the transition period after four weeks of rest, and I am currently in week 4. I have noticed that my average pace times for aerobic activity in Zones 1 and Zones 2 are dropping by about 20-30 seconds a week. I am also noticing that my average BPM is now below 110 for cragging on 5.8 - 5.9 climbs for 60+ mins, whereas when I started 4 weeks ago it was around 120 bpm.

As for Cardiac Drift, certainly noticeable in the hot summer months. I'll start out about 20-30 BPM's higher than my average for the specific Zone I am running in and then drop back to normal BPM within 1-2 minutes.

The hardest part for me has been how to get through their plans given the time that is needed, especially when you get to the big chunks of time needed per week, sometimes 20 hours, in the base period. With a full time job and lots of travel, its a huge challenge for me. Its very hard to have a full day of meetings and somehow find the time to work in a 1-2 hour run.

Steven N · · CO · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 80

Is anyone planning on attending the Alpine Climbing Training Seminar in Ouray on 17-19 January? Looks to be a good course with lots of information from the course plus a day of climbing int he park.

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45

How's everyone's training going?
I'm curious about ways that people track their volume. Hours vs miles vs intensity?
I usually track: 1) Miles covered 2) Elevation gained hiking, running, treadmill, and rock climbing. 3) Number of strength training workouts (since I tend to skip them if I don't keep track, lol).
I set monthly goals, depending on what's coming up next as a challenge.

I've got a decent start in Sept., with 52 miles, and 15,500 feet gained so far this month.

FosterK · · Edmonton, AB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 67

I track hours as per Steve's guideline: time moving for aerobic work, strength from warm up to finish, and climbing tracks time on the wall (I.e. Upward movement). Elevation gain is the second priority. Distance, if applicable, is the last and least important.

I have been struggling to meet the volume in the second half of the Base Period (muscular endurance). My target hours have been around 15/week, which means long easy runs that are taking a toll on time and body. The muscular endurance work has been hard to meet as well, in particular the hill climbs or box steps: I just don't have the mental focus to climb a 1 foot box 2000 times. If I don't have big days in the alpine on the weekend, meeting my hours is difficult.

I've had to take the first rest week early due to a developing IT band issue. I'll probably make it 2 weeks of easy volume in order to get back on track.

Since starting the program I've completed 194 hours of training, and 18.879 m of ascent. I've noticed significant improvements in aerobic capacity.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Mountaineering
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