Preventing the sling from unclipping from the biner

Yes I know that rapping on 3mm cord is a big no-no but it was only a 20ft rap and I'm an adrenaline junkie. Besides, I've decked from that high before and the only injury was a sore back for a week or so. On the other hand, I've seen guides free-soloing 5th class terrain a good 50 ft or more off the deck. But I appreciate you looking out for my safety.

eli poss wrote:Yes I know that rapping on 3mm cord is a big no-no but it was only a 20ft rap and I'm an adrenaline junkie. Besides, I've decked from that high before and the only injury was a sore back for a week or so. On the other hand, I've seen guides free-soloing 5th class terrain a good 50 ft or more off the deck. But I appreciate you looking out for my safety.

i really dont know what to say ...

perhaps this should be a separate thread???

hmmmmm

nkane wrote: This video shows why you shouldn't use a rubber band to secure the rope-end biner.

All that video really shows is that you should always inspect your gear before you leave the ground, which should be done regardless of whether you have a rubber band on the end of a sling or not.

EDIT: Also, in the case of the Eldo accident, was it the rope or the sling that unclipped from the biner?

eli poss wrote:Yes I know that rapping on 3mm cord is a big no-no but it was only a 20ft rap and I'm an adrenaline junkie. Besides, I've decked from that high before and the only injury was a sore back for a week or so. On the other hand, I've seen guides free-soloing 5th class terrain a good 50 ft or more off the deck. But I appreciate you looking out for my safety.

I think most of us are pretty concerned about your safety at this point. I was merely pointing out your misspelling of the word "rapping". Your inability to decipher this rather obvious jest, leads me to believe, that you need a guide...

A spelling mistake calls for a guide? That's funny. This is the internet not a college essay. Wow that actually is funny

Jim Amidon wrote: But what do i know I learned this in a rigging for rescue course from the instructors in Ouray..... They had video proving how weak the mixed material was........Dynamee and nylon especially the skinny slings........

Hi Jim,

Can you elaborate a bit on this point? I am interested in what are saying, but I am not completely following.

Cheers.

Just wanted to chime in... Thanks bearbreeder for the new thread, seems more appropriate.

In the last thread it seemed there were multiple responses saying how clove hitching the rope end biner on your slings was great except for the fact that you can't rack them as alpine draws, need to rack them over shoulders.... What is this nonsense? Am I missing something?

I took a draw last night, cloved the one biner, clipped it up, unclipped, reclipped. Seems like clove hitching one end only has the effect to put a twist in your sling, which may require more attention to orientation when clipping the rope, but otherwise seems to be an A+ solution to half the problem... Help me out here....

Ari Kantola wrote: I think most of us are pretty concerned about your safety at this point. I was merely pointing out your misspelling of the word "rapping". Your inability to decipher this rather obvious jest, leads me to believe, that you need a guide...

Eli definitely needs a guide for the Proj, but only if the guide is AMPGA certified.

Tom-

I did the same thing this morning- one side cloved and the alpine draw worked fine, either extending from the rope end with the cloved biner or from the pro end with the 'normal' configuration of the alpine draw. No issues at all. I'll probably start racking this way, even if a clove is hard to untie when loaded.

Can someone explain why rabbit runners or clove hitching to the rope-end biner prevents carabiner gate flutter? And why are longer slings more likely to induce gate flutter?

TheIceManCometh wrote:Can someone explain why rabbit runners or clove hitching to the rope-end biner prevents carabiner gate flutter? And why are longer slings more likely to induce gate flutter?

The accident was not caused by gate flutter, or at least the initial speculation doesn't seem to point to that. Another guy posted a video of the failure mode that is being discussed in this thread.

Edit: the video is in the thread linked by bearbreeder in the first post.

As far as the accident in Eldo goes...the runner was found unclipped (I believe it was the rope end?). How can we tell if it came unclipped from gate flutter /self-unclipping or if it was never clipped or partially clipped (rope stuck in the gate) and then came off during the fall. I mention this as a possibility because it has happened to me a couple of times. I have looked down to see gear or the rope not attached because I had failed to completely clip, probably getting the sling/rope stuck in the gate and climbing by, only to have it come out.

Tom Sherman wrote:Just wanted to chime in... Thanks bearbreeder for the new thread, seems more appropriate. In the last thread it seemed there were multiple responses saying how clove hitching the rope end biner on your slings was great except for the fact that you can't rack them as alpine draws, need to rack them over shoulders.... What is this nonsense? Am I missing something? I took a draw last night, cloved the one biner, clipped it up, unclipped, reclipped. Seems like clove hitching one end only has the effect to put a twist in your sling, which may require more attention to orientation when clipping the rope, but otherwise seems to be an A+ solution to half the problem... Help me out here....

its a bit different from the "normal" alpine draw

normally one takes the biner off then reclips any single strand to extend it

for 60 cm slings with a cloved biner you need to unclip two strands at the clove side (while keeping on the clove) rather than taking it off entirely ... its a different action one needs to get used to and more fiddly under pressure IMO especially with those smaller UL biners (camp nano, edelrid 19g, metolius fs mini) ... and probably easier to do with a long draw or rabbit runner where you have less strands to deal with

for triple extended draws (120 cm sling) it also doesnt work very well ... those youll need to wrap around your shoulder ... basically put a clove, put it over your should then clip it back to itself

note that one can clove both sides ... this effectively prevents the sling unclipping from itself issue ... this also has the added benefit of making the sling a bit "redundant" .... even if its cut it might still hold as long as the dyneema clove doesnt slip too much

the downside is that cloving both sides can the sling to "bunch up" when extending the draw ... not an issue for 120cm slings that are simply wrapped around the shoulder

one additional note is that you should make sure the clove is tight ... and when you clip the rope its loaded on the spine as you dont want this to happen

10mm sling, camp nano ... clove loaded badly keep the clove right and loaded on the spine!!!

csproul wrote:How can we tell if it came unclipped from gate flutter /self-unclipping or if it was never clipped or partially clipped (rope stuck in the gate) and then came off during the fall. I mention this as a possibility because it has happened to me a couple of times. I have looked down to see gear or the rope not attached because I had failed to completely clip, probably getting the sling/rope stuck in the gate and climbing by, only to have it come out.

if the biner was still attached to the rope, but there was nothing else attached to it then its likely the sling came out of the biner

cloving the rope side effectively prevents this possibility for the sling (rope side) not being fully clipped ... as the biner never comes off the sling even when extending (no unclip, reclipping)

this does not of course solve the not clipping the rope/pro properly or having that side come out (which lockers/opposed biners would help with)

Do you use a clove hitch or a girth hitch for this?

I just want to say thanks for moving this discussion here…

I think it means a lot to some folks who are having a hard time
dealing with some thoughts right now. (Myself included…)

Thanks for initiating this bearbreeder!

eli poss wrote:Yes I know that rapping on 3mm cord is a big no-no but it was only a 20ft rap and I'm an adrenaline junkie. Besides, I've decked from that high before and the only injury was a sore back for a week or so. On the other hand, I've seen guides free-soloing 5th class terrain a good 50 ft or more off the deck. But I appreciate you looking out for my safety.

So many things to say here...but I'll go with:

1) be safe
2) stop saying "adrenaline junkie".

Badass radical extreme adrenaline junkie

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Dude wasn't born when that movie came out.

I on the other hand got a tattoo after seeing that movie. Eeee I'm old!

I noticed that with one side clove hitched the alpine draws racked better. This was because the bouncing up and down of the climber didn't allow for the alpine draw to get 'bunchy'.

If you're like me and use a hooded rope side biner. The clove hitch actually makes the extension even more ergonomic than before. While before I would have to thumb over one strand while sliding two out (finnicky to grab just one strand). Now I: grab biner move ~1/2" towards other biner (clove moves with, other two loops 'bunch out') thumb over gate and clove, slide loops over gate, open gate, slide loops out.

While my overly detailed explanation above makes this sound ridic, it seems to be considerably easier to do than before. Unless some statement about reduced strength of clove hitches/ damage to dyneema from repeated loading at this critical point comes out (enough to really scare me) this is what i'll be doing from now on.

Lastly the only downside I see, is even more care is needed when creating the alpine draw. If you're anal retentive about racking you gear like me, just take the extra care to align your bar tack just before your gear side biner after cloving, and when you form the alpine draw, boom, everything works great.

Just waiting to see how they sit on the wall, not happy with the slight twist formed by the clove hitch, hopefully gravity prevails...

Bill Kirby wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^^ Dude wasn't born when that movie came out. I on the other hand got a tattoo after seeing that movie. Eeee I'm old!

haha don't want the thread to get out of control, but anytime I hear statements like "adrenaline junkie", "radical" etc. when not tongue in cheek, I think of things like this...or guys on ATV's sport rappelling. So extreme.

radical.

I hear ya Scott! I hated those words being said when I used mountain bike at a expert level. I would be so proud to ride a trail clean. I would show to friends who would comment how extreme that was or I'm adrenaline junkie. It's all relative.

I really hate those words used to market crap we don't need to impress people that don't care about anything.

Edit.. I will get a couple rabbit runners to try out as this does worry me. I clip the biners at the ends of a double runner over my shoulder most days anyway. SORRY for jacking.