sliding X

Eliot Augusto wrote: What this a "No" to shock loading being a myth? I don't have a formal education in physics, but it appears to me that shock loading is a real thing. If it isn't, could you explain why?

Alright, 24 hours have passed and not much has changed here. Elliot, help us out. Explain to us what shock loading is since you believe it to be a real phenomena. When does it occur? What are the consequences.

So I've been crashing my car into a brick wall at 90 mph thinking it was ok since I have anti lock brakes, a seat belt, air bags, and crumple zones. I do it once a month. Bam, fuck, ouch. I get hurt every time. But, I have all this safety gear. What is wrong? So I read the manual and as it turns out, crashing into brick walls should be avoided at all costs.

This is the essence of climbing. Understanding scenarios, limitations techniques, things to do, and things to avoid at all cost. Rgold, this is why you frustrate me at times. I value you your math, research and experience. But, I can crunch a few H's, L's, x's just the same. Perhaps a few mgh's and 1/2kx squared, too. For starters, lets keep it in the context of the op's question. Remember what that was? TR for starters. Then, you go on to some rare lead fall scenario that should be AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS in the first place when trying to answer the op's TR question! DO I NEED TO REPEAT THAT!

Furthermore, what everyone should consider is the value of good load distribution vs the consequences of one piece failing in an equalized system. I do know of two anchor failures leading to the death of both climbers in recent years where the cordelette was used. And we know that a cordelette provides very poor equalization even when constructed very well and the load direction is well anticipated. One of these accidents was reported to have three distinct pops after the leader factor two'd onto the belayer. Clearly, each piece failed in sequence. No load distribution. No equalization. Would a sliding x or an equalette have prevented these accidents? Nobody can say for sure.

But, I don't know of accidents related to the "mythical shock load". Not to say it hasn't happened. Please feel free to cite examples. But, you have to ask the question: If these pieces share the load, does it reduce the likelihood of any one piece failing at all or if one piece fails, will this lead to the failure of another piece. (Buff comment here).

It is funny to hear people say "up thread" don't every use a sliding x unless you are on two solid bolts. WHAT? So you've got two solid bolts and you need to equalize them? Well, that's fine. But, a more important reason to equalize two pieces is because you question them in the first place.

This post is far from exhaustive. I will comment more soon. Please feel free to look up old posts where I show some math regarding this topic. But, remember, the best answer: IT DEPENDS!

Patrick Shyvers wrote: Right, I'm not necessarily telling you to use just one tree as an anchor. But you can never really make an anchor that is maximally SERENE in all respects. There is no anchor that meets all 5 criteria perfectly, especially if you want dynamic equalization. So, you compromise. An anchor that is very Strong (trees, boulders) can sacrifice some Equalization or Non-Extending in the name of Efficiency. An anchor that is not very Strong (RURP pitons?) can make up for it with Redundancy and good Equalization. Basically what people are telling you here is, if you believe the trees are very Strong, don't worry about Equalization so much and think about making an anchor that is good for the other three, RENE

and an equalette doesn't fit this criteria? i thought that if you use two opposed lockers, one on each strand, it's good. to my knowledge this setup fits SERENE aside from maybe efficient but i have all the time in the world and can walk around to the top so imo it's no problem. just a recap, my plan is the girth two trees with cordalette long enough that it is over the edge and then use an equalette for 4 lockers-two on either end and one on both of the middle strands in the middle. this is simple, equalized (as much as possible without a pre-equalized knot), redudant, no extension. i mean it seems good to me.

Greg D wrote: Alright, 24 hours have passed and not much has changed here. Elliot, help us out. Explain to us what shock loading is since you believe it to be a real phenomena. When does it occur? What are the consequences.

Well. To start I'll say there are stopper placements that I would rap off of, but not take a leader fall from. That's how I differentiate in my mind what shock loading is. A load being pulled up(or being lowered) from the ground with uniform tension versus an abrupt application of force.

It occurs when you don't build an anchor right or the rock quality is poor or very slippery.. Morse specifically, if you don't equalize the master point correctly on a multi-pitch trad and only 2 of the pieces are holding the weight. One of them has a disaster happen to them and the piece that had no weight now has a higher force load on it than if it was built correctly. The consequences could range from nothing happening than the belayer needing a change of shorts to another piece pulling.

EDIT: But also keep in mind that I asked the question because I'd rather know the truth or more information, not to nay say. And if the force was sufficient to pull 1 piece from the wall, all the energy has to go somewhere. A bit into the rope, a lot into the pulled gear, and the rest into the next thing stopping it. I think anyways.

Well since everyone is on their high horse

The reason i use a slinding x on two SOLID BOLTS has nothing to do with equalization

But rather

- theres no knot to tie or untie so its very fast, especially to take apart where the second is not struggling to untie a weighted knot

- i often end up with just a 60cm sling at the belays ... A sliding x uses less length than most other methods ... Especially with nylon slings, the knot can take up a significant amout of material ... With a sliding x i often have enough for a good 2 bolt anchor

If theres any real chance that an anchor would be loaded or rub over a sharp edge, i dont use the sliding x

Now back to your regularly scheduled MP senseless arguments on sliding Xs and how everyone who doesnt do it their way will die

;)

bearbreeder wrote:Well since everyone is on their high horse The reason i use a slinding x on two SOLID BOLTS has nothing to do with equalization But rather - theres no knot to tie or untie so its very fast, especially to take apart where the second is not struggling to untie a weighted knot - i often end up with just a 60cm sling at the belays ... A sliding x uses less length than most other methods ... Especially with nylon slings, the knot can take up a significant amout of material ... With a sliding x i often have enough for a good 2 bolt anchor If theres any real chance that an anchor would be loaded or rub over a sharp edge, i dont use the sliding x Now back to your regularly scheduled MP senseless arguments on sliding Xs and how everyone who doesnt do it their way will die ;)

if the bolts are placed at the same height why not just use two draws? and no you aren't gonna die, especially if your anchor consists of two bomber bolts. i mean the standard bolt is usually rated to at least 20 kN, typically 25kN. i don't know how it would be possible in a TR set-up to generate a 20 kN? i mean even a factor 2 fall with a 300 lb climber doesn't generate 20kN of force (assuming you are using a dynamic rope).

eli poss wrote: if the bolts are placed at the same height why not just use two draws? and no you aren't gonna die, especially if your anchor consists of two bomber bolts. i mean the standard bolt is usually rated to at least 20 kN, typically 25kN. i don't know how it would be possible in a TR set-up to generate a 20 kN? i mean even a factor 2 fall with a 300 lb climber doesn't generate 20kN of force (assuming you are using a dynamic rope).

Because the bolts are often not at the exact same horizontal height

On multi the person who put in the bolt could have placed them any number of ways

And i would rather carry a single sling (which you can use for many other things) than 2 extra draws

In fact ill use it tmr on some nice easy multi

No doubt i dead already

;)

Kevin Pula wrote:I think he meant that using only one locker was negating the redundancy. His sentence structure was confusing and negated his logic.

He did. And it doesn't. You don't "negate redundancy" when bringing seperate anchors to a single locker, you just lack redundancy on that part of your anchor. If any of the other parts of the anchor fails you still have a redundant anchor.

bearbreeder wrote: Because the bolts are often not at the exact same horizontal height On multi the person who put in the bolt could have placed them any number of ways And i would rather carry a single sling (which you can use for many other things) than 2 extra draws In fact ill use it tmr on some nice easy multi No doubt i dead already ;)

hmmm i didn't realize multi-pitch sport was a thing. i thought most/all multi-pitch climbing was trad.

Greg D wrote:...you go on to some rare lead fall scenario that should be AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS in the first place when trying to answer the op's TR question! DO I NEED TO REPEAT THAT!

You don't need to repeat it, and shouting won't help, what you need is to read the thread to see whose question I was answering---it wasn't the OP's. (Hint: something that keeps float planes from sinking.) The horror of thread drift.

The "rare lead fall scenario that should be avoided at all costs" (no argument there) was mentioned because the person I was responding to was interested in how Long and Gaines arrived at the result that there would be no effect of anchor extension. I suggested that the scenario they tested wasn't the one a belayer would care about, because it didn't have a belayer in it, and the moment you put a belayer in it you find that extension can have a very significant effect.

It is especially odd that after heaping scorn on the scenario I analyzed, you mention two total anchor failures, which would have involved precisely the scenario I spoke about. You are using as an example for the point you want to make the same example I used that you reject as somehow irrelevant.

In any case, I'm sorry this has frustrated you. It it is any consolation, I'm done explaining.

Bearbreeder, I'm not on any high horse and never said anywhere that anyone would die if they didn't do it "my way." (I don't have a way.) I have tried to mention the results of tests that I've read about (something you do a lot more than me, and I find it valuable) and have added some high-school physics reasoning that suggests some of the test results should be expected in principle.

I've never fully understood why some people find it necessary to brand as "senseless" topics that others obviously find interesting.

eli poss wrote: hmmm i didn't realize multi-pitch sport was a thing. i thought most/all multi-pitch climbing was trad.

There tons of trad multi with bolted anchors, especially those with a rappel descent

My suggestion is to go out an actually do the stuff with someone safe and experienced

Intraweb forums is the last place you want to learn basic anchoring and safety skills

As to senseless arguments ... Are we still on TR anchors?

;)

bearbreeder wrote: There tons of trad multi with bolted anchors, especially those with a rappel descent My suggestion is to go out an actually do the stuff with someone safe and experienced Intraweb forums is the last place you want to learn basic anchoring and safety skills As to senseless arguments ... Are we still on TR anchors? ;)

i already have basic anchoring and safety skills that i learned first hand from a mentor, thank you very much. i just don't have experience with sliding configurations other than the sliding x. i really don't appreciate you assuming that i am trying to learn anchor-building skills on a forum, nor do i appreciate you calling TR anchors a senseless argument. first, i consider this more of a conversation than an argument and i enjoy reading these because they never fail to yield concepts that i may not have considered and often cause me to do addition research which adds to my sack of tricks that i may need in some situation in the future. even if i don't learn something new, it is entertaining to read about the physics and arithmetic that go into climbing yet are often overlooked unless you are guiding or manufacturing gear.

and where i am from, the ethics go that on multi-pitch climbs, you build a gear anchor at the belay if possible and only use the belay anchor as a rap station. its the same ethic that causes us to TR through slings or draws rather than directly through quicklinks/rap rings. plus, considering most of the development was done in the 60s and 70s, many belay anchors are too sketchy to use as belay anchors and are used only as rap stations.

eli poss wrote: i already have basic anchoring and safety skills that i learned first hand from a mentor, thank you very much. i just don't have experience with sliding configurations other than the sliding x. i really don't appreciate you assuming that i am trying to learn anchor-building skills on a forum, nor do i appreciate you calling TR anchors a senseless argument. first, i consider this more of a conversation than an argument and i enjoy reading these because they never fail to yield concepts that i may not have considered and often cause me to do addition research which adds to my sack of tricks that i may need in some situation in the future. even if i don't learn something new, it is entertaining to read about the physics and arithmetic that go into climbing yet are often overlooked unless you are guiding or manufacturing gear. and where i am from, the ethics go that on multi-pitch climbs, you build a gear anchor at the belay if possible and only use the belay anchor as a rap station. its the same ethic that causes us to TR through slings or draws rather than directly through quicklinks/rap rings. plus, considering most of the development was done in the 60s and 70s, many belay anchors are too sketchy to use as belay anchors and are used only as rap stations.

Youre the one who doesnt know how to tie a masterpoint ... This is a skill EVERY climber with even the slightest experience knows how to do

Youre asking the most basic questions and indicated that you dont know how to build nor understand the most basic anchor setups

Before you go out and setup TRs ... Have someone SAFE and EXPERIENCED show you how to set up the different anchors (if they cant show you how to tie a masterpoint poperly they are not the above)

At the very least pick up some basic anchoring books by mr long or luebben

Remeber that as the person who sets up the TR you are RESPONSIBLE not just for your safety but also that of everyone else climbing on it

As evidenced by you lack of basic anchoring knowledge, seek out proper instruction before setting anchors other folks will climb on

All this argument about TR anchors is useless as you dont even have the basic skills or experience to set up a proper masterpoint anchor

Even if all the information sprouted on this forum is correct, you can easily miss something in the application

Its like learning how to bakr a cake from online "experts", even if the recipe is correct you can still miss a step

But with climbing rather than having burnt cake, you end up with dead or hurt folks

As to bolted belays on trad multis ... Do you even lead multi???

I suggest going out and doing so before sprouting off about it ... Most places around here if there a bolted belay, you belay off it

;)

eli poss wrote: hmmm i didn't realize multi-pitch sport was a thing. i thought most/all multi-pitch climbing was trad.

??????? There is plenty of multipitch climbing which is sport. (aka closely spaced bolts)

Whether a climb is bolted or not has little to do with its length. What matters is the rock quality and the bolting ethics of the area.

thanks Rgold. I appreciate the expert opinion and resources!!

eli poss wrote:how does a cordalette negate the redundancy of a single locking biner?

Try reading Nate's post again. He's saying that the single locker (locker) negates the redundancy of an equalized (and redundant) cordalette, not the other way around. The wording is a little awkward, but that is what he meant, not that a cordalette negated the redundancy of a single locker (that doesn't make any sense!).

sliding x works just fine.

Same 5 words, didn't even need to use caps, amazeballz

bearbreeder wrote: Youre the one who doesnt know how to tie a masterpoint ... This is a skill EVERY climber with even the slightest experience knows how to do Youre asking the most basic questions and indicated that you dont know how to build nor understand the most basic anchor setups Before you go out and setup TRs ... Have someone SAFE and EXPERIENCED show you how to set up the different anchors (if they cant show you how to tie a masterpoint poperly they are not the above) At the very least pick up some basic anchoring books by mr long or luebben Remeber that as the person who sets up the TR you are RESPONSIBLE not just for your safety but also that of everyone else climbing on it As evidenced by you lack of basic anchoring knowledge, seek out proper instruction before setting anchors other folks will climb on All this argument about TR anchors is useless as you dont even have the basic skills or experience to set up a proper masterpoint anchor Even if all the information sprouted on this forum is correct, you can easily miss something in the application Its like learning how to bakr a cake from online "experts", even if the recipe is correct you can still miss a step But with climbing rather than having burnt cake, you end up with dead or hurt folks As to bolted belays on trad multis ... Do you even lead multi??? I suggest going out and doing so before sprouting off about it ... Most places around here if there a bolted belay, you belay off it ;)

of course i know how to tie a masterpoint... it's the most simple anchor set-up in existence. i just don't know how to tie a master point designed for an off-axis fall because that simply isn't possible. you don't fucking know me so how the hell do you expect to know what i do and don't know. if you took the time to read the whole thread you would have seen multiple points where which i stated i know how to tie a master point, both as an overhand in a bight and a figure 8 in a bight. i really don't appreciate you assuming that i don't know the simplest of anchor-setups. and no i have never lead a multi-pitch route but i have followed on a few and my mentor does a lot of multi-pitch climbing. and do you not realize that ethics change between areas. so before you go ranting about my stupidity you should get to know me because if you did, your mistake would be quite obvious. and where i climb, gear anchors are much more trustworthy than the belay anchors already in place (they are mostly 40+ yr old compression bolts or fixed pins) so we use gear instead and leave the intermediate anchors as rap stations. some fucking people on MP. can we not just have a friendly discussion about physics involved in anchors without some dumb-fuck assuming shit and pissing people off?!

bearbreeder wrote: Youre the one who doesnt know how to tie a masterpoint ... This is a skill EVERY climber with even the slightest experience knows how to do Youre asking the most basic questions and indicated that you dont know how to build nor understand the most basic anchor setups Before you go out and setup TRs ... Have someone SAFE and EXPERIENCED show you how to set up the different anchors (if they cant show you how to tie a masterpoint poperly they are not the above) At the very least pick up some basic anchoring books by mr long or luebben Remeber that as the person who sets up the TR you are RESPONSIBLE not just for your safety but also that of everyone else climbing on it As evidenced by you lack of basic anchoring knowledge, seek out proper instruction before setting anchors other folks will climb on All this argument about TR anchors is useless as you dont even have the basic skills or experience to set up a proper masterpoint anchor Even if all the information sprouted on this forum is correct, you can easily miss something in the application Its like learning how to bakr a cake from online "experts", even if the recipe is correct you can still miss a step But with climbing rather than having burnt cake, you end up with dead or hurt folks As to bolted belays on trad multis ... Do you even lead multi??? I suggest going out and doing so before sprouting off about it ... Most places around here if there a bolted belay, you belay off it ;)

of course i know how to tie a masterpoint... it's the most simple anchor set-up in existence. i just don't know how to tie a master point designed for an off-axis fall because that simply isn't possible. you don't fucking know me so how the hell do you expect to know what i do and don't know. if you took the time to read the whole thread you would have seen multiple points where which i stated i know how to tie a master point, both as an overhand in a bight and a figure 8 in a bight. i really don't appreciate you assuming that i don't know the simplest of anchor-setups. and no i have never lead a multi-pitch route but i have followed on a few and my mentor does a lot of multi-pitch climbing. and do you not realize that ethics change between areas. so before you go ranting about my stupidity you should get to know me because if you did, your mistake would be quite obvious. and where i climb, gear anchors are much more trustworthy than the belay anchors already in place (they are mostly 40+ yr old compression bolts or fixed pins) so we use gear instead and leave the intermediate anchors as rap stations. some fucking people on MP. can we not just have a friendly discussion about physics involved in anchors without some dumb-fuck assuming shit and pissing people off?!

eli poss wrote: and an equalette doesn't fit this criteria? i thought that if you use two opposed lockers, one on each strand, it's good.

Ah, I missed when you said you were going to do that. It should self-equalize better than the sliding X, for sure. If it was me I'd probably still use a masterpoint and if I was really concerned about off-axis falls, include a piece somewhere as a redirect, but the equalette should do you fine.