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Gunks Bolted Rappel-Anchor Survey, hosted by the Gunks Climber's Coalition

cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90
MojoMonkey wrote: That is not a practical solution. Many climbers will forget. Others will get lost as some rappels aren't visible without some scrambling down to find them - something a less experienced climber or one unfamiliar with the area may not be willing to do. They will end up using whatever they can find.
Thats what makes the world go round- because I think it certainly is one of the most practical solutions, considering most everyone at the cliffs has a guidebook on their party. Many of them have ingeniously attached it to their harness via cord, so they are able to reference it at all times. I dont know of one other climbing area that has signs, arrows, or otherwise to let the climbers know where the best place is to descend. Seems like people have gotten by using guidebooks and having a plan for a long time. I'd rather see a little tat or tiny bolt hangers then signs and arrows all over the place. Again- My opinion.
Alec O · · Norwich, VT · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 31
gtluke wrote:What I'd like to see most out of the rap anchors is keeping them in places out of climbing lines, and out of places that gather rocks that get knocked over the edge. I'm not terribly opposed to the idea of a little tag on them to tell you how long the rap is either. And a name. I've often gone to throw my rope and yelled rope and then come up blank as to the name of the route I'm planning on throwing down on. The Madam G rap is fantastic. It doesn't collect rocks and it keeps you away from anyone climbing. I wish more were like that. Can you even do that rap with 1 rope? I forget. SEE!
This, this this! Take Horseman, for example. Why the hell would anyone rap off that route? It's a 2 minute walkoff and rapping exposes people the carriage road to totally unnecessary danger from falling rocks and ropes. That tat should be eliminated, but no bolts should replace it.
MojoMonkey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 66
cms829 wrote:Thats what makes the world go round- because I think it certainly is one of the most practical solutions, considering most everyone at the cliffs has a guidebook on their party. Many of them have ingeniously attached it to their harness via cord, so they are able to reference it at all times. I dont know of one other climbing area that has signs, arrows, or otherwise to let the climbers know where the best place is to descend. Seems like people have gotten by using guidebooks and having a plan for a long time. I'd rather see a little tat or tiny bolt hangers then signs and arrows all over the place. Again- My opinion.
No, it is not a practical solution to the problem of other climbers not finding / using the bolted rappels. You could preach about how all climbers should carry a guidebook or memorize where to look for the bolted stations, but you will never reach / convince all of them. And those that agree may still forget sometimes. However, an obvious trail and a sign pointing out a hard to find station is more foolproof for those that are trying to get to those stations.

Whether is is a desirable solution is another matter, of course.
cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90
MojoMonkey wrote: No, it is not a practical solution to the problem of other climbers not finding / using the bolted rappels. You could preach about how all climbers should carry a guidebook or memorize where to look for the bolted stations, but you will never reach / convince all of them. And those that agree may still forget sometimes. However, an obvious trail and a sign pointing out a hard to find station is more foolproof for those that are trying to get to those stations. Whether is is a desirable solution is another matter, of course.
I know what your point is, and putting up signs all over the place WOULD make things easier to those unfamiliar with the cliffs, but whether its practical or not is another story. Never mind desirable.
doublediamond100 · · Thousand Oaks, CA · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 0
cms829 wrote: That "signage" is already up- take a good look at your guidebook BEFORE climbing. The photos in the back of the book show you the nearest established rap.
Even knowing where the bolts should be doesn't translate into actually being able to find them from the top of the cliff. I'll admit I don't have the best sense of direction, but I like to think I'm not too far below average. I'd walked past the downclimb to the madam G rap station many times before someone showed it to me even though I've used that station several times and was aware of where it was in relation to the route I had just done. Same deal with the arrow bolts. Having trails marked with blazes is not only prevalent throughout the preserve (including the top of the nears) but is also extremely important in managing climbers' impact on the cliff top by consolidating the web of trails into a few main paths.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
cms829 wrote: That "signage" is already up- take a good look at your guidebook BEFORE climbing. The photos in the back of the book show you the nearest established rap.
I don't climb with a guidebook. . .
cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90
doublediamond100 wrote: Even knowing where the bolts should be doesn't translate into actually being able to find them from the top of the cliff. I'll admit I don't have the best sense of direction, but I like to think I'm not too far below average. I'd walked past the downclimb to the madam G rap station many times before someone showed it to me even though I've used that station several times and was aware of where it was in relation to the route I had just done. Same deal with the arrow bolts. Having trails marked with blazes is not only prevalent throughout the preserve (including the top of the nears) but is also extremely important in managing climbers' impact on the cliff top by consolidating the web of trails into a few main paths.
I think a small blaze type system would certainly work well and would minimize clifftop impact for sure. That would get my vote.
cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90
Morgan Patterson wrote: I don't climb with a guidebook. . .
Nor do I . . .

Nor have I ever had an issue finding where to rap. Maybe Ive just been lucky, idk.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
cms829 wrote: Nor do I . . . Nor have I ever had an issue finding where to rap. Maybe Ive just been lucky, idk.
I don't believe you. I highly doubt if you've climbed there much, that you've never spent at least a minute or two looking for a rap station. Or maybe your partners knew where it was before and just showed you... I call BS.
cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90
Morgan Patterson wrote: I don't believe you. I highly doubt if you've climbed there much, that you've never spent at least a minute or two looking for a rap station. Or maybe your partners knew where it was before and just showed you... I call BS.
LOL - I kid you not. As I said, maybe Im lucky. Ive climbed for 20 years. Have climbed in the gunks for probably close to 12 of those, every season. I live just over an hour away. The ONLY thing Ive had issues with is that I'll forget what name climb is below what im rapping when throwing rope, because I dont climb with my book.

Have I had to find the rap anchors, sure. Have I ever had trouble finding them? No I cant recall a single time where Ive had "trouble" locating them. If I am not rapping the route I've climbed, I make sure I check where the nearest "R" is in the photo section of the book and thats that. Not trying to argue with you dude- Ive just never had an issue. Not sure why thats so unbelievable.
christopher adams · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 0
cms829 wrote: The ONLY thing Ive had issues with is that I'll forget what name climb is below what im rapping when throwing rope, because I dont climb with my book.
This. When the walkoff is too daunting I just look for the nearest tree close to the edge and 8 times out of 10 there's somebody's tat on it.
Chris Duca · · Dixfield, ME · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 2,330

I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest, but since I began climbing in the Gunks some 18 years ago, there have been a noticeable increase in traffic in the form of beginner climbers, as well as an increase in the amount of slung trees. Coincidence?--perhaps.

Maybe a better rap station designation system (a la a well-marked trail system on the cliff top), or perhaps stricter ethics policing (said with much jest!). Honestly, with the increased number of climbers it has become increasingly hard to satisfy everyone...

Personally, I am not opposed to replacing worn tat with discreet bolted anchors/rappel stations so long as the locations are not gratuitous.

James Sweeney · · Roselle Park, NJ · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 30

Here's a little reading on the subject.
Gunks Anchors
The postings by rg and cfrac are the meat.
As usual, the real concern is money. As in who's going to pay for all this new hardware?

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65

That Gunks.com thread link goes to the middle of the 4th page. For full value and context, start at the beginning: gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbth…

Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954
acnthxyl wrote:Sharing the GCC's post: "As we are all aware, safety in climbing is paramount."
This is simply not true. Although reducing environmental impact is a compelling argument.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Indeed!

Risk, and how it is dealt with, is an essential ingredient in trad climbing, perhaps the major ingredient that distinguishes it (or ought to distinguish it) from sport climbing, which seeks to minimize and generally eliminate risk in order to pursue maximum difficulty.

It is certainly possible to interpret "safety is paramount" in a way that would make it appropriate to trad climbing, but as an unqualified statement it is surely wrong-headed.

Meanwhile, the survey seems more interested in driving response in a predetermined direction than to coming to grips with the full spectrum of underlying issues. I found it necessary to use the "I don't know" reply to two questions which failed, in my opinion, to supply appropriate alternatives. The fact of the matter is that I do know, but am prevented from sharing that knowledge by virtue of the response design.

I think that, rather than a voluntary-response survey, which has absolutely no statistical validity anyway, even if it had been well-constructed, it would have been (and still is) more useful for the GCC to call for written comments.

Rob D · · Queens, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 30

unless you know your way around the upper cliff, that guidebook isn't going to help you find the stations. I know where the bolted anchors are (more or less) up till High e, but when I'm at the top of those climbs it kind of all looks the same. I just wander until I find the top of a climb that I recognize. I mean, those helicopter pictures don't show the paths up there, and most of them just wander from one tree-rapped-tat-pile to the next, it's not like I can sit there and count each tree to try from where I topped out to find the rapp stations. You can say that everyone should have that area memorized all you want, but the book only helps you know which direction to walk, it doesn't help you actually find the stations. I think the less people bushwhacking up there, the better.

Nate Solnit · · Bath, NH · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0

I think that the discussion of safety in general and safety on descent are largely different. I appreciate wanting to leave run outs unbolted, and not have fixed anchors at all or any belays, but I don't think that equates to maintaining dangerous or damaging descent lines. Risking descent off a dangerous rap station doesn't personally elevate the experience the way a long runout would, it seems more like playing Russian Roulette. I think that having a clear (Blazed, cairned) walk off, or several clean descent lines in the style of High E (off route, usable with one rope, clearly indicated in the guidebook) would make sense in order to reduce risk and damage on descent without creating traffic problems or ruining peoples TRAD experience.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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