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Gunks Bolted Rappel-Anchor Survey, hosted by the Gunks Climber's Coalition

Original Post
Derick L · · Philadelphia, PA · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 235

Sharing the GCC's post:

"The Gunks Climbers' Coalition has been working with the Mohonk Preserve to address rappel anchors. Specifically the GCC is advocating for bolted anchors to replace tree rappel anchors where trees are suffering from climber impact. Additionally there are some fixed gear rappel anchors composed of pitons and/or other aging hardware that the GCC is requesting be replaced with bolted rappel stations.

Ultimately the decisions to add any new bolted rappel anchors will be made by the Mohonk Preserve. Your feedback in the following survey will be presented to the Mohonk Preserve by the GCC. As we are all aware, safety in climbing is paramount. We need and value your input, please click on the link below to participate in the survey.

Please accept our thanks for your time and thoughtful consideration and kindly share this post with other Gunks climbers you know."

Gunks Bolted Rappel-Anchor Survey

cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90

Thanks for posting this. I completed it.

No one wants to see the Gunks slowly turn into a sport climbing destination- and there should be NO bolted anchors in areas where a safe gear anchor can easily be constructed by someone with experience, but in those areas where a gear anchor is questionable or is damaging the environment yes i agree to the installation of a bolted anchor. No bolts should be placed to make things easier for "less experienced" climbers. Nor should they be placed to make things faster for the experienced climbers. Only in places where it will increase safety and decrease our impact on the area.

MojoMonkey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 66
cms829 wrote:No one wants to see the Gunks slowly turn into a sport climbing destination
I think you are wrong about that. Or maybe those that would love it to be a sport destination would oppose the "slowly" part?
Eric G. · · Saratoga Springs, NY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 70

never underestimate the probability that someone will turn an OP about rappel anchors into a discussion about sport climbing.

Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506

Replace gear/sling/tree rappel anchors with low visibility fixed rappel anchors which can be easily teplaced once worn.
The Gunks sees a lot of traffic, it's scary to see people mindlessly rappelling off old pieces of webbing. Maybe elliminate those in close proximity to each other?

At least we're not talking about bolting every single belay.

Derek Jf · · Northeast · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 335
Eric G. wrote:never underestimate the probability that someone will turn an OP about rappel anchors into a discussion about sport climbing.
+1 Eric
Will Cohen · · Denver, Co · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 80

I would like to hear some findings about how walk offs have been affecting the ecology of the cliff top as It is my preferred method of getting down the cliffs.

I don't know if more rap anchors make sense when there are plenty already available, and trad leaders should be competent enough to make a gear belay on intermediate pitches. Whereafter, one can walk a couple hundred feet along the clifftop to one of the rap stations/walk offs. If one of the main concerns is to prevent people from walking around up there, then this is obviously not an appropriate response; however, I'd like to hear why and see supporting evidence.

Yes, it would make getting off climbs a bit more convenient, but I also fear a) increased toproping using fixed anchors which is a pain when trying to rap from locations where this is common. b) The precedents that more bolting will create in the trapps c) how non-locals, new climbers, and those new to the outdoors will perceive this move in a traditionally non-bolted area.

I feel like I'd like to see the full report as to what this bolting is trying to mitigate before I decide how I feel about the matter.

Also, despite popular thought to the contrary, I am probably among the youngest trad leaders out in the gunks and feel very iffy about adding new anchors, but I am not fully educated on the matter as of yet.

gtluke · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 1

What I'd like to see most out of the rap anchors is keeping them in places out of climbing lines, and out of places that gather rocks that get knocked over the edge. I'm not terribly opposed to the idea of a little tag on them to tell you how long the rap is either. And a name. I've often gone to throw my rope and yelled rope and then come up blank as to the name of the route I'm planning on throwing down on.

The Madam G rap is fantastic. It doesn't collect rocks and it keeps you away from anyone climbing. I wish more were like that. Can you even do that rap with 1 rope? I forget. SEE!

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 674
gtluke wrote: The Madam G rap is fantastic. It doesn't collect rocks and it keeps you away from anyone climbing. I wish more were like that. Can you even do that rap with 1 rope? I forget. SEE!
Yes. But not all the way to the ground from the top. There's another bolted rap station halfway down over by Northern Pillar.

That rap was kind of a rite of passage before they placed the bolts on top ;)
gtluke · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 1

Rapping from that tree would keep me from ever climbing again :)

doublediamond100 · · Thousand Oaks, CA · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 0

While I agree that having rap anchors on trees has a negative environmental impact, I really don't think more bolted rap anchors are needed. At least in the Trapps, you're rarely more than a 5 minute walk from a bolted station. The problem is, unless you have intimate knowledge of the cliffs many of them are nearly impossible to find. I think this is the main reason we still see so many slung trees scattered around the cliffs. If the bolted stations were a little easier to find, people would be less inclined to use tree anchors to rappel.

Scott Taber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 512

Thanks for posting this, hopefully it has a positive impact. I'm all for replacing anything that is clearly unsafe or hurting the environment. I have seen plenty of both at the Gunks.

Rob D · · Queens, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 30
Scott Taber wrote:Thanks for posting this, hopefully it has a positive impact. I'm all for replacing anything that is clearly unsafe or hurting the environment. I have seen plenty of both at the Gunks.
I agree with this. Last year was my first season living in new york, and finding rapp stations that weren't tree-tat I found to be frustrating, so I would often just rapp from whatever rings were around instead of wandering around overcliff.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
cms829 wrote:there should be NO bolted anchors in areas where a safe gear anchor can easily be constructed
When was the last time you set a gear anchor to rappel?
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
WillamR wrote:I would like to hear some findings about how walk offs have been affecting the ecology of the cliff top as It is my preferred method of getting down the cliffs.
Impact wise, you are walking over a greater square footage of area, and likely using a web of trails along top of the cliff, so basic logic would tell us walking off has more impact then rappeling off the top which affects a smaller area sq ftage wise.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
doublediamond100 wrote:The problem is, unless you have intimate knowledge of the cliffs many of them are nearly impossible to find. I think this is the main reason we still see so many slung trees scattered around the cliffs.
I couldn't agree more... +1000. I agree this is the main problem right now I've had a recent visits. No signage = no use. There should be some small arrow or indicators to nearest rap. This would go a LONG way. . .
MojoMonkey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 66

This survey is a little confusing. The wording seems to be aimed at showing support for adding bolt anchors versus determining whether that is the right approach. I can't access the survey from work, but one of the questions was worded to ask if some anchors are showing signs of an ecological impact - who could pick anything but agree? But that doesn't indicate the scope of the problem - 1 anchor in 10? In 100?

It also isn't clear that bolts will serve the stated goal of helping the environment. Unless each climb has a bolted descent, folks will still be topping out and walking to the next station. Their time on the clifftop will likely still impact the roots of the trees that formerly had slings. The effort might be better spent on building/maintaining proper trails along the top with care taken to help prevent erosion, like waterbars. They'd need some sort of markers to direct those unfamiliar to the anchors that exist too. I've walked a number of lost folks to anchors like the one over Ribs or The Last Will be First. You'd also need to consistently remove the other anchors that pop up and make a concerted effort (preserve-backed with signs and in communications) that establishing new stations is not condoned.

Baby to City Lights is a good microcosm. As it is there is an easily accessible bolted rappel above City Lights. Whether for ignorance or convenience climbers on Baby or Son of Easy O seem to favor the Baby rappel or the anchor not quite atop SoEO. Would you advocate adding a bolt anchor where the fixed one is on SoEO? One by the top of Baby? Do you or the Preserve prefer folks walking to the not very far away descent routes?

A final critique of the survey - is the focus environmental preservation? Safety gets tossed in too, though I'm not sure all would agree safety is paramount in climbing, as stated in the lead in. Some may say entertainment or exercise, and in any case climbing is inherently not safe so then you are trying to determine thresholds. Is the implication that bolts are the safe option? An easy walk off probably sees fewer injuries than a safe rappel. It is less convenient though, so many climbers pick the rappel.

cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90
Morgan Patterson wrote: When was the last time you set a gear anchor to rappel?
Never, obviously (I wasnt referring to RAP anchors). But I also dont ALWAYS rap the same route ive climbed if an easier or safer rap is only a climb or two away. Im saying that not ALL routes need bolted anchors, nor should ALL routes be rapped.
cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90
Morgan Patterson wrote: I couldn't agree more... +1000. I agree this is the main problem right now I've had a recent visits. No signage = no use. There should be some small arrow or indicators to nearest rap. This would go a LONG way. . .
That "signage" is already up- take a good look at your guidebook BEFORE climbing. The photos in the back of the book show you the nearest established rap.
MojoMonkey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 66
cms829 wrote: That "signage" is already up- take a good look at your guidebook BEFORE climbing. The photos in the back of the book show you the nearest established rap.
That is not a practical solution. Many climbers will forget. Others will get lost as some rappels aren't visible without some scrambling down to find them - something a less experienced climber or one unfamiliar with the area may not be willing to do. They will end up using whatever they can find.
Eric G. · · Saratoga Springs, NY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 70

re: "convenience signage", this is only a pretext. Once someone installs a sign at the top of the cliff, signs are going to pop up near the parking lot, near the uber-pooper and even at the top of the stairmaster.

I only approve of signs that are installed ground-up. All this talk of top-down sign installation will destroy the proud ethic in the gunks.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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