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New Alpinism

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45
Optimistic wrote:I just started in on the 8-second max hill sprints described in the strength workouts. They seem like a really amazing workout...have other people been doing those, and if so, have they seen some good results from them? What kind of results? Another exercise I haven't tried yet but am curious about is the sort of "upper body campus ladder" they describe, wherein you're doing double dynos, but on a ladder with pipe rungs, so that it's not a finger workout but rather an arm/back workout. Has anyone delved into those? Slightly steep price of entry on that one, namely spending an afternoon building the ladder just to give it a try. (and yes, I do know that a standard campus board doesn't just work your fingers)
I built this monkeybar set in my yard. On the close end, it has a chin up bar, and also serves as a rack for my barbell. I do some campusing from the chin up bar to the higher bars and between the horizontal bars as well. I'm going to add an overhanging ladder type thing on the far end. Maybe a salmon ladder, like in the American Ninja course. I've already added climbing holds along the side, for a hanging traverse. I also use the frame for my home-made TRX straps, and gymnastic rings. On the right side, there are some vertical pipes hanging down (just barely visible in this picture). That is to simulate hanging off of ice tools.

Home made exercise station.
Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Tom Nyce wrote: I built this monkeybar set in my yard. On the close end, it has a chin up bar, and also serves as a rack for my barbell. I do some campusing from the chin up bar to the higher bars and between the horizontal bars as well. I'm going to add an overhanging ladder type thing on the far end. Maybe a salmon ladder, like in the American Ninja course. I've already added climbing holds along the side, for a hanging traverse. I also use the frame for my home-made TRX straps, and gymnastic rings. On the right side, there are some vertical pipes hanging down (just barely visible in this picture). That is to simulate hanging off of ice tools.
Nice setup! Nice yard, too! Lil' more space than my 0.15 acre (including house!).

How do you secure the bars to the rails?
Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Tom Nyce wrote: The core workout is great. I'm just pointing out that there are better exercises than the "Kayaker," and a substitution may give have better results. Even the name is a misnomer. Although the position is similar, the pulling/pushing are reversed from when you are kayaking. Several places in the book, the authors mention that they are trying to convey principles, and the details shouldn't be "set in stone." People should feel free to make substitutions for various reasons that apply to their own particular situation. Instead of the kayaker, I substitute "Standing Russian Twist." I use a tilted Olympic bar when I'm at home. At my gym they have a nice gizmo called a "landmine." to put the end of the bar in. Check out "landmine exercises" on youtube. Some of the advantages (compared to kayaker) are: 1) longer kinetic chain involved, from your hands all the way through to your feet. 2) your spine is in a safer position during SRT. The curled forward spine position of the kayaker, combined with twisting is somewhat riskier. 3) the back side of my torso is weaker than my front (common with climbers), and SKCR has few exercises that work the back in extension. Subbing the SRT adds a good "posture strengthener." In real kayaking, your back is straighter, and the torque on your body is in the other direction. You pull to the rear with the lower hand, while pushing forward on the upper hand. This is safer, and happens to be more like climbing as well (where you hold yourself in with the lower hand while reaching up and forward with the other hand. I've been doing Scott's Killer Core routine for a few weeks now, and really like it. As recommended in the book, I'm doing a single set of everything as a warmup before my regular strength training workout.
I'll check that out.

Really seeing some nice benefits occurring rapidly (on rock) with the addition of the core work.
Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45
Optimistic wrote: I'll check that out. Really seeing some nice benefits occurring rapidly (on rock) with the addition of the core work.
I've also seen benefits from core training. I have a fairly weak core, so that is more likely to be a limiting factor on the rock in my personal situation. I've been training "core" specifically, for years before the Alpinism book, came out, and it has definitely helped improve my rock climbing. On the other hand, I have climbing partners who started out with fairly strong cores, but who haven't climbed that much (2 or three years, at 40 times a year). For them, getting in more climbing is more important than doing core exercises.
Jon Rhoderick · · Redmond, OR · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 966

What are everyone's thoughts on the wall facing squat?
I scoffed at it at first, I don't see how it is extremely translatable to climbing as they say. Obviously a high step on vertical rock requires some similar movements, but I have trouble seeing how that could be improved with a non-climbing specific exercise.

Sean S. · · Thornton, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 10

Jon,

I've done workouts with a lot of wall squats in them in previous programs. I have found they do translate extremely well to steep ice climbing. If you search for Will Gadd's suggestions for Squat Swings, they're basically the same thing. It is very similar to pressing with the feet while climbing since it restricts how far forward your knees can go, bringing a fair amount of more balance into the equation. I am planning on incorporating wall squats, or variations like squat swings, into my muscular endurance style workouts.

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45
Optimistic wrote: Nice setup! Nice yard, too! Lil' more space than my 0.15 acre (including house!). How do you secure the bars to the rails?
I use the "U" shaped brackets that are made for attaching electrical conduit to framing. I put a thin strip of rubber on the pipe first to increase friction, and reduce the chance of rotation within the bracket. These brackets are very inexpensive, but I'd like to find something made of thicker metal that I can crank down tighter.
Naz Ahmed · · Herndon, Virginia · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 0

I'm into my 5th week of Base and I'm using the technical alpine plan since my objective is to climb technical routes in the Tetons in the Fall.

I'm planning my muscular endurance period (Base Wk 9-16) and have questions about allocation to muscular endurance. In the graph in the book for week Technical Alpine 9-18, House and Johnson just show max strength;
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In the description prior they set guidelines for 1 to 2 sessions of muscular endurance with an abbreviated max strength session as a warm up. So not sure how much time to break out between muscular endurance and max strength.

For example, at my Week 9 Base volume, my max strength would be 144 minutes or 2:24. How would you divide this up between max strength warm-up/maintenance and maximum endurance? I'm also doing weighted jug carries during my two long z1 hills and steeps, so I'm probably not going to carry weight on those for the muscular endurance period since I'll be doing that specifically for my muscular endurance period (I'll probably do some treadwall laps too).

Glad to see a solid community of people geeking out on this stuff just as I am!

Jonny d · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 40

Naz,
FWIW, for muscular endurance day, I just take the time that day that I need to complete the weighted hill climb elevation (I have to use step-ups because I live in the flatlands) recommended for the week I'm in. I do a set of treadmill handwalks on either side of the hill climb workout. I just take any excess time out of the week's Zone 1/recovery time. Works for me; may not work for you.
Jonny

James Bellamy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 10

1. So what does a typical non-cardio day look like for you folks?

This entire muscular endurance thing is throwing me off.

2. Secondly - If I'm doing the approach to lets say (tahquitz rock) which has a steep hill climb for the approach - my heart rate will assuredly be out of zone 1.

I climb at tahquitz often. If I'm doing steep hill climbs where my heart rate is above 150 (carrying climbing gear, making a reasonably fast approach to get climbing, etc) then where does this fall?

Likewise - When you push yourself in the mountains to go a faster pace, or are affected by the altitude - your heart rate will be above the zone 1 range.

The zone 1 base training is supposed to help you with these days though, correct?

It's just that I've noticed I'm out of zone 1 on most of the approach/alpine climbs I do - I am well above zone 1.

Mike F · · Arden, NC · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 56

James,

I think the idea is that you (assuming you're in the transition/base phase) you're supposed to be putting down a lot of zone 1 work. That said,assuming you're supposed to be in zone 1, the thing to do would be to slow down on those approaches (as painstaking as it is). I feel your pain, as I've had to slow my approach speed way down here in the Sandias at ~10k feet, but it's paid off as my fitness has increased, as I've been able to up the speed and maintain the same low heart rate. Any other time above zone 1 should be counted as time in those elevated zones.

Cheers,
Mike

jaredj · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 165

A hallmark of real training is doing the easy days easy and the hard days hard. A common thing for recreational athletes to do is to go the same speed (kinda hard) all the time, never reaping the benefits of the big volume of easy that allow you to do the real hard days truly hard later on down the road.

Do the zone 1 stuff easy even if it is tedious.

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45
jaredj wrote:A hallmark of real training is doing the easy days easy and the hard days hard. A common thing for recreational athletes to do is to go the same speed (kinda hard) all the time, never reaping the benefits of the big volume of easy that allow you to do the real hard days truly hard later on down the road. Do the zone 1 stuff easy even if it is tedious.
This is soooo true! Especially in runners. They run "kinda hard" most of the time, and then can only go a bit faster in the races (10K runners are a typical example). After more than 20 years of running this way, I read (and reread several times) Daniels' Running Formula. I used those principles, slowed down most of my training, sped up for selected "quality" workouts, and beat my race times from when I was a youngster.
Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45
James Bellamy wrote:1. So what does a typical non-cardio day look like for you folks? This entire muscular endurance thing is throwing me off. 2. Secondly - If I'm doing the approach to lets say (tahquitz rock) which has a steep hill climb for the approach - my heart rate will assuredly be out of zone 1. I climb at tahquitz often. If I'm doing steep hill climbs where my heart rate is above 150 (carrying climbing gear, making a reasonably fast approach to get climbing, etc) then where does this fall? Likewise - When you push yourself in the mountains to go a faster pace, or are affected by the altitude - your heart rate will be above the zone 1 range. The zone 1 base training is supposed to help you with these days though, correct? It's just that I've noticed I'm out of zone 1 on most of the approach/alpine climbs I do - I am well above zone 1.
James:
I do cardio (trail running, speed walking, or a long hike) 4 or 5days a week. On two of my non-cardio days, I do a warmup first, then “Scott’s killer core workout,” and about a dozen of my own strength training exercises (which happen, by chance, to include quite a few of the ones in the book), and usually some agility or balance work (slackline, unicycle, or trampolining). I’ve been doing strength workouts at least two days a week since ’09, and just kept dropping exercises that didn’t seem to do much over time, and keeping things that seemed to work. I pretty much use my trad climbing experiences as my test of what exercises “work.” I’ve also noticed that my downhill trail running is hugely benefited by certain core exercises.
I spent a week climbing at Tahquitz and doing that approach hike every day. I’m sure that my HR was no where near 150 (likely 120s-130s), and my partner and I would typically pass people (that were taking breaks) on the way up. I didn’t make up this somewhat derogatory label, but you may be what House and Johnston call “aerobically deficient.” See page 59. Before reading this book, I had never heard of this. But it answered one of my long standing questions about some of my partners. The ones who seemed generally fit, tended to hike fast, but needed to take breaks, and ended up bonking if the effort was a long one (I do a lot of very long, hard, hikes). I always thought that they just lacked pacing skills, but this aerobically deficiency syndrome is probably a better explanation. Essentially, it means that they have a small/narrow aerobic zone (zone 1 and 2). Their zone 1 speed is very slow, and they aren’t willing to walk that slow. But they have above average anaerobic endurance, which partly makes up for the deficiency. So, they tend to hike fast, then take a quick break, and repeat. They can usually keep up for several hours, but not all day. They tended to be the more muscular of my partners. Maybe it has something to do with the ratio of fast twitch/slow twitch fibers. More likely, it is just due to their typical exercise regimens.
edit/add: I don't only do long slow stuff. This morning was my "T" pace run (zone 3 in TFTNA). Heart rate was 160-175 bpm for 30 minutes, followed by 25 minutes in the 150's. I do a ton of stuff below 145 though.
James Bellamy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 10

Tom that seems to explain some things. I am 185 lbs, 5'11 - and do have somewhat of a muscular physique - although not cut or ripped by any stretch.

Due to my line of work It's necessary to keep some weight on - But I would like to shed maybe 10lbs and see how I feel.

I can do a full day at Tahquitz (for me right now that means about 8 pitches of hard climbing, 5.7 and up, think coffin nail, piton pooper - lead climbing) and would still have room in the tank - but would be tired for sure.

What I really need to do is slow down my pace, it seems. The tahquitz problem is coupled by the need to get to the climbing in a reasonable amount of time (nobody wants to take an hour to do the approach!). We usually do the approach in about 25 min - sub 20 when I'm not carrying any gear and am free-soloing the trough (although that is quite the burner for me). I usually wind up counting the Tahquitz day as a training day - although it just gets generalized - not put into any specific category...

The weight training I do is not aerobic by any nature - but seems helpful with my climbing.

The bottom line is I'm answering my own questions here now, I think. The bummer part of it is I just don't have 1.5+ hours to devote to training every day.

James

Alexander Blum · · Livermore, CA · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 143

James,

Have you considered counting that approach as zone 2 or 3 work?

Tony Schaps · · Chamonix France · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 45

128 lb (me) vs 200 lb (Don Whillans )

http://youtu.be/O6CTK2hFvrw

Stay slim- climb and live longer

FosterK · · Edmonton, AB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 67
Alexander Blum wrote:James, Have you considered counting that approach as zone 2 or 3 work?
Which is fine for some Transition Period work and later work in the Base Period, but if he hasn't built up much of an aerobic base then I'm not sure there's much advantage to simply calculating it differently.

Slow down, rest steps, make it a conversational pace. If your partners are speeding by you, they can set up anchors and flake rope while they wait for you.
Naz Ahmed · · Herndon, Virginia · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 0

What do you make of doing yoga sessions? Count them towards your weekly hours? Mainly Hatha yoga/ Vini Yoga/ Yin Yoga. If you do count yoga towards your sessions, what category do you put them in?

Jumi-Jakke · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 0
Naz wrote:What do you make of doing yoga sessions? Count them towards your weekly hours? Mainly Hatha yoga/ Vini Yoga/ Yin Yoga. If you do count yoga towards your sessions, what category do you put them in?
Personally I don`t count Yoga, but I am doing very mellow classes, more like stretching. Different story if You do more challenging stuff...
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