Where would you start in the climbing industry today? (Need advice)

Will S wrote:Quickest way to ruin your passion...make it your job. I loved environmental engineering and policy work at one time, and hate it these days...but get paid quite well to stomach that hate and do my job. From your later post, it sounds like you're a trust funder (e.g. luxury of being able to take work for shit pay). In that case, I have no advice. Most of us come around to the reality of having to support ourselves in our older years, and the necessity of making enough money to build that nest egg...trustys, not so much. Climbing gyms are a money sink...large capital investment, low margins, etc. I'm already seeing consolidation in the gym industry as the established multi-location gyms are starting to absorb the competition. If that trend continues, margins will shrink further and they will be achieving economies of scale, making the ol "I'll borrow money and open a gym" route an even more risky proposition. Guiding...no real money there and burnout is astronomical. Too many people chasing too few clients/dollars. Manufacturing is a better place to be, at least you will build transferable skills. Trainined machinists who can deal with modern tools (CNC programming etc) are somewhat in demand and even if the carabiner company you work for folds up, at least you can get paid well somewhere else as a machinist. If it were me, I'd go one of two routes: A. If you are a people-person, extrovert...medicine. Nursing, flight medic, PA, etc. Flexible schedules, good pay, lots of opportunity for the forseeable future. B. If you are introvert, non people-person...compsci/programming/web design. More good pay, flex opportunities (contract work, and an industry where jumping around a lot is expected/common) Probably too late to chase those paths if you are already through college. Good luck...I'm headed out the door now to my ball and chain of a job. Six figures of misery...but only three years of it to go and I'll be retired at 45...if I don't quit in disgust at the dysfunction first, which is a real challenge these days.

^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^

I 2nd the comp sci approach. You can do it from anywhere and given the right skillset you're in high demand. Also If you want to be a life long climber, I suggest you separate your passion from your vocation. Ive yet to meet actual pros(climbers/reps/gym owners/guides/retail/manufacturing employees) who werent masking their bitterness or who werent actively managing their 'psyche!'.

i remember reading an interview with steve hong where the person asked him what advice he would give to young folks wanting to have a long climbing career. his response was 'get a good job'.

i completely agree with willS and ryan - the quickest way to destroy something that you love is to make it your job. the big double whammy here though, is a career in the climbing industry has a very low probability of being lucrative. so, you won't really be able to say "well, i don't really like it but i am making a shit ton of money doing it".

Here's one that might appeal to you, climbing wall construction. If not it might to other readers of this thread. I did it for 6 yrs. The major wall company's are almost always hiring.

Pros
-Pay, around $15 an hr. to start. But there will be projects where you will make union wages, around $25 per hr. Better yet are prevailing wage projects, $40 to $45 per hour. With bonus there were times I was making over $50 an hr.
-Travel, you will work all over the country and the company takes care of the travel expenses. Possibly other countries as well.
-Time off, often between jobs you will have chunks off time to pursue other things. Like climbing in areas you might other wise never visit.
-Meeting people, you will make many contacts in the indoor climbing industry. Some of the people you work with will become trusted lifelong friends.
-Learn new skills, you will work with wood, steel, and concrete. Valuable knowledge in the construction industry.
-Advancement, if you have the ability to lead others or are creative, there will be opportunities to supervise and design. Both on sight and at the company's home office and shop.

Cons
-Pay, the lifestyle will become very grueling. At a some point it won't be worth it. Even if they offered you $100 an hour.
-Travel, there will come a time when you wish you were home with family and friends. Or even have a home. Many put their belongings in storage and commit to a vagabond lifestyle.
-Time off, many times after a project there will only be time to get to the next one. Often times you will work till you drop to meet deadlines.
-Meeting people, some of the people you work and live with you won't like. There will be very little opportunity to get away from them.
-Work environment, Dusty, dirty, welding gases, and noisy. If you cant take discomfort, it's not for you.
-Very physical, no big deal in your 20's and 30's maybe even into your 40's. But it will wear you out. Not a good lifetime career choose.

Construction is a very rough and tumble world. Especially commercial sites. I've done a lot of what most would consider very scary shit climbing and sailing. Never lost a minute of sleep over it. But I lost several nights of sleep knowing the next day I was once again going to have to go toe to toe with union tuffs who were threatening to break my legs. Or wondering if mob muscle was going to break into housing and beat the crap out of me. Racism is common on job sites, I hate that. Best not to be thin skinned, your co-workers are going to give you shit. You better be able to give it back or you'll get no respect.

Take from this what you will.
Good luck all!

Not to be too negative about climbing wall construction, but I think it's important to point out that most of these walls going in are in areas of the country far from actual climbing.

It's definitely a mixed bag. But I would probably have never climbed at many areas in the east if it wasn't for that job. Gunks, Seneca, Cathedral, and many more "minor" areas. Another draw back is lots of time in the suburbs. Not my favorite place. If you've been in one suburb in the U.S., you've been to most suburbs in the U.S. I can't count how many times I walked out of a Home Depot/Lowes and thought "What city am I in and what kind of rental car am I driving" They all start looking the same. Mainly because they are.

How good are your good grades in econ? Good enough to get into a PhD program with funding?

Here's the angle.... Get yourself into a so-so PhD economics program in the state of your choosing (CO / UT / wherever). If you're smart enough (and took enough math), you can sorta coast through barely passing the first year coursework. Instead of completing the program, exit with a master's degree (the typical GTFO consolation degree from PhD programs in economics). This would empower you to have a low-paying job lecturing at any community college you want. This won't make you much scratch, but will afford you a lot of time.

Down the road the master's will be worth a little something (though not a lot), and potentially open doors for you if you picked up some data programming skills.

Sam:

It's not the answer you're looking for - sounds like you want to be a guide. But there are some other opportunities on the periphery of climbing - working for climber-despised land management agencies or working for non-profits that do work on/for public lands.

It took some perseverance, but I was able to turn my math/education degrees and computer resume into a pretty damn fun job working in Eldorado. It can be pretty frustrating, but in the end, you can spend a lot of time in a place you love and do some good work that benefits climbers.

I kinda wish there were more climbers working in public lands management. It's really interesting to see how climbers and land managers succeed/fail in working together - more folks with ties to both groups could really benefit both sides.

And you'll keep the parentals happy because it's a real grown-up job with a uniform and maybe even a pension.

HaHa

Good Luck! I think whoever mentioned open Coffee Shop had the best idea. Do it in a prime location as close to a climbing area or Gym as possible where it would be impossible to not cross the cafe on the way to and from gym or crag, preferably walking distance.

jaredj wrote:How good are your good grades in econ? Good enough to get into a PhD program with funding? Here's the angle.... Get yourself into a so-so PhD economics program in the state of your choosing (CO / UT / wherever). If you're smart enough (and took enough math), you can sorta coast through barely passing the first year coursework. Instead of completing the program, exit with a master's degree (the typical GTFO consolation degree from PhD programs in economics). This would empower you to have a low-paying job lecturing at any community college you want. This won't make you much scratch, but will afford you a lot of time. Down the road the master's will be worth a little something (though not a lot), and potentially open doors for you if you picked up some data programming skills.

Too good not to quote.

Sam these guys all suck. Just cause you can take a low paying job means your a trust fund kid? Wtf? If that dude hates his environmental job so much he should quit, stop being a sell out. He is giving up it sounds like.

Go out and get it, try the mountains out its a blast. Don't let these disillusioned weekend warriors take a dump on your goals.

Nursing if you can hack it. 3 on 4 off and traveling opportunity after about 3 years of experience on the floor. To try it out get a CNA (nurse aide) licence and you can find a job (especially night shift) pretty much anywhere and dictate your schedule. Money is not as good but better than most jobs for the time and money invested in school for it. Not super physical but gets you moving. Not many people can do it because it's kinda love or hate job. Lots of needs for psych techs and in home care and long term care. Same gig, 3 on 4 off and you get to chose your schedule.
If you have to explain your decisions to parents I suppose you are not at a certain state of mind when you just want to make enough money and have the flexibility to pursue your passion for climbing. Looks like you want to make money in it. There is no money in climbing short term. It takes many years in cut throat competition to become a reputable guide. I suppose you could take a business opportunity on a franchise climbing gym like Earth Trecks. Lots of logistics but it's worth it if you are into that kind of thing.

Joan Lee wrote:Nursing if you can hack it. 3 on 4 off and traveling opportunity after about 3 years of experience on the floor. To try it out get a CNA (nurse aide) licence and you can find a job (especially night shift) pretty much anywhere and dictate your schedule. Money is not as good but better than most jobs for the time and money invested in school for it.

Yeah man just go back to school for 4 years. Get a nursing degree? Sucks your parents suck and apparently everyone knows they won't like your passions. But yeah best of all, just try and work for Earth Tre(c)ks, I'm sure everyone on this site will tell you how much they love Earth Tre(c)ks. What a joke.

photography?

I just wanted to let you know that me and >90% of my friends will openly admit to being wrong about "what we wanted to do" with our lives when we graduated college. Even people who seem very passionate about their work (e.g. veterinarians) become disillusioned quick.

I think the safe bet is to take the best paying job you can, such that in 3-4 years, when you really know what you want to do, you will have the financial resources to make it happen.

I think you chosen the correct way to seek advice. People who love/care about you (like family) seem to be the most reluctant people to say "eh, don't follow your passion..." They don't want to hurt your feelings, but us anonymous people on the 'net are much more honest, and as you can see the overwhelming majority of responses are not super positive.

Kevin Pula wrote: Yeah man just go back to school for 4 years. Get a nursing degree? Sucks your parents suck and apparently everyone knows they won't like your passions. But yeah best of all, just try and work for Earth Tre(c)ks, I'm sure everyone on this site will tell you how much they love Earth Tre(c)ks. What a joke.

2 years. And not work at Earth Trecks, own a franchise gym like Earth Trecks. Apply for a loan for business opportunity and have your parents cosign on it. If your parents paid for your college I can see the awkward moment there, but they will get over it in time when they see you are happy.

Another one for Manufacturing, it has been good to me. Steady hours, good pay, and I get to live in VT. In five years or so there's going to be a massive need for engineers/toolmakers/NC programmers and you'll be able to name your price. The industry as a whole is aging pretty rapidly and it's not hard to find good paying work just about anywhere. IMO, finding a job that you can tolerate that allows the lifestyle you want and gives you the opportunity to do things you love is the way to go.

The mandatory thank you note:

I'm really surprise to see the amount of feedback and great support from the community. I want to just write a quick thank you note to everyone who replied or PM me. You guys are awesome, thank you so much. I received so many PMs, offering suggestions, contacts, and experiences. Let me tell you that they're priceless and I will do my best to make the most out of it. It has been quite unbelievable the distance you guys are willing to go to help a someone. Thank you.

The general opinion so far has been to look for a good job that allows you to climb in your spare time. And while I really appreciate the advice and I understand perfectly the logic behind it, I don't think it is the right thing for me. Maybe working in the climbing world is not a smart decision, but is is a deliberate one. I could find a stable job with a good income, I could further my academic career; those are all good options. But other than making a living, I also want to make a difference. It's a bit stupid and naive, but hey, when you're young, you can afford to dream.

To be honest, I have no idea what I want to do with my life. Maybe in a few years I will say to myself "this sucks", and you can say "I told you so". But I doubt I'll regret it. If I want a shot at "pursuing your dream", I can't see why I shouldn't do it in my 20s, rather than, say, early 30s.

For those who suggest I find a more stable career, I really do appreciate your reply. I mean it. They keep me grounded and made me think more clearly of what I really want to do. Your advice is as valid as gold, but I guess I'm the idiot who will ignore it and forge ahead.

For those of you who offered your help, thank you. Your encouragement means everything. And to see someone has done it before me, it's a great boost of confidence.

(I have no problem with trust fund kids, but just to clarify, I'm not one. The reason why I can afford to take a low paying job is largely because I was one of the lucky few that attended (attending) college almost free of cost.)