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Bolt cutter in Central Mass.

Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
Morgan Patterson wrote: I know you do, as you should and I agree about the retroness overall. But it's okay to admit you made a mistake in listing bolts that weren't there and that helped make your 'case'. I wouldn't stand by those... My point earlier to chris was that they're not trad routes anyone has lead, they were TRs that were solo'ed once maybe twice.
Maybe when I have some time this Fall I will go and take some photos of the cliff and mark all the bolts and show you where the trad lines were retro bolted. Dave Fasulo is accurately drawing topos with the bolts marked for his new edition guidebook and we can line those up.
I guess it comes down to how you define trad routes. I think that most climbers would consider the FA a trad lead even if it was led with one piece of gear and the leader was in ground fall most of the route, and even if it was never led again, and it gets TRed a million times afterward. The FA was still a trad lead and the route was still retro-bolted without the FA's permission. Like I said, I don't really care if they got bolted. They are better off as bolted routes in my opinion and I wouldn't have asked the nut case either.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Brian wrote: Maybe when I have some time this Fall I will go and take some photos of the cliff and mark all the bolts and show you where the trad lines were retro bolted. Dave Fasulo is accurately drawing topos with the bolts marked for his new edition guidebook and we can line those up. I guess it comes down to how you define trad routes. I think that most climbers would consider the FA a trad lead even if it was led with one piece of gear and the leader was in ground fall most of the route, and even if it was never led again, and it gets TRed a million times afterward. The FA was still a trad lead and the route was still retro-bolted without the FA's permission. Like I said, I don't really care if they got bolted. They are better off as bolted routes in my opinion and I wouldn't have asked the nut case either.
I know which lines and I agree its mostly about sematics... you don't need to go to the cliff and photograph the bolts. I've spent plenty of time there climbing the routes and I know which ones don't exist. Yellow circle = doesn't exist, Red circle = where bolt shld be on this image. My point being the claims you made were an overreach on some... accurate on others. Smoke Out was never sport bolted and remains a "trad" climb. One could argue the first bolt was placed adjacent to the line, to the right of the corner but that's it. This was deceptive of you and you should have had your facts straight on this before it went to print. You didn't even climb the lines. . .
Smoke out fake bolt out
Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
Morgan Patterson wrote: This was deceptive of you and you should have had your facts straight on this before it went to print. You didn't even climb the lines. . .
I had my facts straight. I climbed the lines way back when they were trad routes and after they were bolted. Way before you ever even climbed. You are being deceptive and don't have your facts straight in claiming that no trad bolts were retro-bolted when the photo you just posted clearly shows bolts going up a trad line (Fresh Bag). This is a route that is called Forest Fire and was led by nut-case in 1982 from the ground up with gear. I hate defending nut-case but I hate being called deceptive even more.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Brian wrote: You are being deceptive and don't have your facts straight in claiming that no trad lines were retro-bolted when the photo you just posted clearly shows bolts going up a trad line (Fresh Bag).
Existing TR's were retro'd and firecracker certainly could fall into that and hence why on MP it says (new) after the name to imply there was a different old line. The new variation was indeed bolted. And my point is I would argue they're not trad lines, they were basically solo'd once and since then have been TR lines for 20 years which is why even you agree the crag is better off bolted.

I have my facts 100% correct about the bolts in that image. The ones in yellow don't exist. We (bolters in the state) laughed at you for not being able to even get the bolt count and locations correct. And the claim of Fresh Bag, your line on the lower half of the route is wrong so your conclusion is wrong. The creation of Fresh Bag was a retro'ing of part of Flashback. It's obvious you didn't climb the all the sport routes because A. You have bolts on your image that don't exist, and B you probably don't climb 5.12 and up routes.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

I'm sorry I don't mean this to be a personal attack but it really stinks that you wrote this article and never even took the time to check your facts and your assumptions like bolts and route locations. If you climbed Fresh Bag you would have started in the corner and clipped the first bolt on the route, rather then what you show on this image which isn't correct. We're all climbers and we're pretty close in agreement about most development etc so please don't take any bad blood out of this. And for the record, never bolted anything at Firewall so i don't have a pony in the race.

Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
Morgan Patterson wrote:I'm sorry I don't mean this to be a personal attack but it really stinks that you wrote this article and never even took the time to check your facts and your assumptions like bolts and route locations. If you climbed Fresh Bag you would have started in the corner and clipped the first bolt on the route, rather then what you show on this image which isn't correct. We're all climbers and we're pretty close in agreement about most development etc so please don't take any bad blood out of this. And for the record, never bolted anything at Firewall so i don't have a pony in the race.
I'm not saying I've climbed all the routes at Firewall but I did climb the routes in question on the topo you posted. So you only have one bolt circled on Forest Fire (AKA Fresh Bag) and all the rest are accurate and you are saying it was not retro-bolted? Out of the three bolts we disagree by your bolt being a few feet higher and to the right (red circle). And that is not retro-bolted? Bullshit. That route was led ground up on gear. My whole point in the Rock and Ice article is there were some routes retro-bolted at Firewall. I stand by that. I will take some photos of the bolts sometime and revisit this thread.
john strand · · southern colo · Joined May 2008 · Points: 1,640

Just to clarify..bolts are not the same as pins. Yes, replacing a fixed pin with a bolt can alter the climb

Jonathan Haggerty · · West Acton, MA · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 195
john strand wrote:Just to clarify..bolts are not the same as pins. Yes, replacing a fixed pin with a bolt can alter the climb
I agree that it could in fact altar a climb, but then again... sometimes change is for the better.

I believe we're all holding ourselves back to a terrible double standard that has been mentioned in forums/discussion for decades now. New England is not the epicenter of higher thinking in rock climbing, and should not continue to think of itself as so. Those 50+ year old pitons will break, someone will die, climbing areas will close. Modernizing now is just as important as it was at the advent of removable protection.

Furthermore, I believe some of these climbs in New England that have been chopped and left to decay are the only thing giving ammunition to the argument at hand. If we just let zealots dictate how we're going to operate our own local crags, then we're being complete push overs. Tradition and Trad-climbing are too closely connected at times...
Nick Votto · · CO, CT, IT · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 320
Jonathan Haggerty wrote: I agree that it could in fact altar a climb, but then again... sometimes change is for the better. I believe we're all holding ourselves back to a terrible double standard that has been mentioned in forums/discussion for decades now. New England is not the epicenter of higher thinking in rock climbing, and should not continue to think of itself as so. Those 50+ year old pitons will break, someone will die, climbing areas will close. Modernizing now is just as important as it was at the advent of removable protection. Furthermore, I believe some of these climbs in New England that have been chopped and left to decay are the only thing giving ammunition to the argument at hand. If we just let zealots dictate how we're going to operate our own local crags, then we're being complete push overs. Tradition and Trad-climbing are too closely connected at times...
Very well said Jonathan Haggerty! And for the record I'm agreeing with almost all of Morgan's points, and this state needs a serious kick in the ass as far as "ethics" go....and Ken is a serious ass clown, that's a fact.
javd von dauber · · East Brookfield MA · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 91

+1 on nick's last post.

Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
MJMobes wrote:Brian from ri is an expert on desert climbing as well, hasn't climbed shit but knows so much. Need beta on solar slab he is your man.
You sound like an angry man Mike. I'm sorry that it is your route we talking about that was retro-bolted. I know everyone is trying to distance themselves from the fact that it was led on gear then retro-bolted because that is an ethical boundary in climbing, even if it was one piece of gear, or even if the Southington Town Council said it was okay to bolt, those excuses are lame to the climbing ethicist. Like I have said, as far as I'm concerned it is better off bolted.

As far as Red Rocks I certainly don't consider myself an expert on the area (or Solar Slab which I've only climbed twice) but I have climbed there every day for 15 weeks (=105 days from 1999-2014) so I do know the routes I climbed there fairly well. Want to compare climbing resumes?
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Brian wrote: I will take some photos of the bolts sometime and revisit this thread.
Make sure to take some photos of the three bolts I circled in yellow...
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

And for the record, lets get your other facts correct...

Fresh Bag is a retro of a line called Flashback, NOT Forest Fire. Flashback was solo'ed with a rope @ 5.9 once by Ken and Jim in 1989. It's not a trad line, its a TR, that was retro-bolted.

Fresh Bag starts in the corner, NOT in the scoop like you're claiming (one of the reasons why we know you never climbed the route).

You also claim Smoke Out 5.7 was retro bolted to a sport route except the majority of the bolts you "documented" don't exist except for the first one.

Doug Meneke · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 10

This is better than Jersey Shore!!!
Which one of you is Snooki?
Were you two married?
What is worse: the show...or the fact that I'm stupid enough to watch this?
Maybe I'll ask my wife.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

Oh and Chris, pretty cool for leading the old Firecracker line on gear. Did you find yourself on the face by the bolts or over to the left on the block crap which is where the original route went? And Chris if you're working on Thatcher, that's very awesome and keep up the good fight. I'm def following along on that one as a access fund volunteer.

Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
Morgan Patterson wrote:And for the record, lets get your other facts correct... Fresh Bag is a retro of a line called Flashback, NOT Forest Fire. Flashback was solo'ed with a rope @ 5.9 once by Ken and Jim in 1989. It's not a trad line, its a TR, that was retro-bolted. Fresh bag starts in the corner, NOT in the scoop like you're claiming (one of the reasons why we know you never climbed it).
Forest Fire goes straight up from the scoop to the right facing flakes on what is now called Fresh Bag. Ken has always had a thing about making his routes as straight as possible. Fresh Bag (retro line) starts in the corner but then goes directly to Forest Fire for the rest of the climb so 90 percent of it is over an existing line. I climbed Forest Fire many years ago and then dropped a static rope on it in the winter of 2013 before the article and top-rope soloed it. I am sure about that route. I will re-check the bolts I "Xed" in on Smoke Out as they may have been on a "new" route a couple of feet away. BTW I'm not the only one who says that bolts are on existing lines at Firewall. Dave Fasulo, who certainly knows about CT climbing history, said the same thing to me. We can argue ad nauseam about what bolts are on what climb or two feet away from what climb but the bottom line is existing trad lines were retro-bolted at Firewall. Just admit it. Every inch of that wall was led or soloed at some point in the past.
Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
Doug Meneke wrote:This is better than Jersey Shore!!! Which one of you is Snooki? Were you two married? What is worse: the show...or the fact that I'm stupid enough to watch this? Maybe I'll ask my wife.
Stay tuned for the dick measuring contest. ;-)
Bruce26 Hamlin · · Boulder CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 0
stopken.org/Home.html

Send any pertinent information to the contacts listed. Additional license plate info and caught in the act evidence can be recorded and submitted to the authorities as well as the appropriate legal network
javd von dauber · · East Brookfield MA · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 91

Is Stopken.org updated anymore?

Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
javd wrote:Is Stopken.org updated anymore?
Jeff, I sent an updated photo of Ken's latest car to Rob Sullivan at Stopken.org a few years back but it never got updated. There is not much that can be done to Ken for chopping bolts because his probation is up, it was only enforceable in MA, and in most places (state land) where there are bolts it is questionably legal to bolt in the first place.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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