Rope solo lead with TWO ropes and two separate devices

Hello,

here's why I am thinking about that.

I have a crag quite close to home. Its pitches are very short. Very, indeed: like, ten meters (33ft) or just a little bit more.

I climb using a Silent Partner, but as recommended in its instructions, I don't want to trust my life to a single device. You know, I love to climb and I want to do it for a long time to come.
So I tie and untie backup knots.

Now, this is very time consuming especially for such short pitches. The setup almost takes the same time as the climb itself.

So yesterday I was thinking: what about using two strands of rope, each with a different device? The SP on one, and, for instance, the gri-gri on the other.

What I am afraid of, is that the two could interfere each other and be detrimental to my safety rather than helpful.

Example: the gri-gri fails to lock but slows my fall enough so that the SP don't lock as well.

Is this TOO paranoid or does it make sense?
Any comments, or other tips to lead solo with a fast backup would be really appreciated. Many thanks!

Febs wrote:Hello, here's why I am thinking about that. I have a crag quite close to home. Its pitches are very short. Very, indeed: like, ten meters (33ft) or just a little bit more. I climb using a Silent Partner, but as recommended in its instructions, I don't want to trust my life to a single device. You know, I love to climb and I want to do it for a long time to come. So I tie and untie backup knots. Now, this is very time consuming especially for such short pitches. The setup almost takes the same time as the climb itself. So yesterday I was thinking: what about using two strands of rope, each with a different device? The SP on one, and, for instance, the gri-gri on the other. What I am afraid of, is that the two could interfere each other and be detrimental to my safety rather than helpful. Example: the gri-gri fails to lock but slows my fall enough so that the SP don't lock as well. Is this TOO paranoid or does it make sense? Any comments, or other tips to lead solo with a fast backup would be really appreciated. Many thanks!

Double rope systems are the standard in commercial rigging, but fairly unheard of in recreational climbing. However, you can use two ropes. Done properly, they are safer. A good option would be to use a Petzl ASAP on the second rope. That device is explicitly designed for what you would be using it for (except tailored to commercial riggers). A much cheaper option would be to use a Mini Traxion and chest harness on the second rope.

Personally, I would not have a problem using just the Silent Partner. I dont think there has ever been a recorded instance of one of those failing to lock. Their internal components are very redundant (5-way if I recall). My only concern would be the carabiners breaking as a result of weird loading, but that can easily be tamed with steel biners or quicklinks.

Thanks for your reply. I watched some official Petzl videos about the ASAP and as far as I could understand it would be only suitable for top-roping, I can't imagine how to use it for leading. Do you use it for solo lead?
Many thanks

That system sounds like a serious pain to me, I use a Soloist and rarely tie back up knots as the thing has never even slipped an inch on me (coil the rope at the bottom and hang it a few feet off the ground)....generally I'm soloing things I won't fall on though. I have taken some bigger falls on it though and it's never failed to lock.

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A toothed device like the ASAP or traxion in a lead fall sounds like a great opportunity to un-sheath the rope.

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Nick Votto wrote:That system sounds like a serious pain to me, I use a Soloist and rarely tie back up knots as the thing has never even slipped an inch on me (coil the rope at the bottom and hang it a few feet off the ground)....generally I'm soloing things I won't fall on though. I have taken some bigger falls on it though and it's never failed to lock.

I used to use a Soloist a fair amount. As I'm sure you're well aware, this device will slip if you fall upside down. A fall pulling a roof, or on a slab, or while pulling on gear (especially aid climbing) are all common situations where it is easy to get the Soloist to slip. And I have this happen at least once in each of these situations, although I did not always reach the backup knot before righting myself to have he device lock.

I now own a Silent Partner. I was never completely happy with the chest harness and the feeding of the Soloist. I don't have enough experience yet with the Soloist to comment on the reliability of its locking, but I'd guess it is very reliable. If I were leading on something that short, I'd probably still use a backup knot, but it might only require one or two. One or two backup knots, pre-tied on the ground, still sounds a lot easier than a second device.

I've never used 2 devices, but it's probably much more of a pain than using the one device with backup knots. Heck, on something that short it would probably just be easier to use multiple backup knots and unclip them as you go.

I've got to ask, what are you getting out of rope soloing on lead on such a short cliff? Having done a lot of rope soloing in the past on walls I now only rope solo if it's top rope and I want to get in a lot of laps or if I'm aid climbing which is pretty rare these days. The work associated with leading on a silent partner or similar device just isn't worth it when free climbing as I'm usually reduced to climbing stuff I would feel fine free soloing.

Have you taken any lead falls on your silent partner yet? They don't lock up all that quickly (no where near as safe as a good human belayer) and on a 30' cliff you've probably got a good chance of decking if you fall.

Thanks all for the replies,

here's some more info:

1) the soloist has been discontinued. There must be a reason for that. :P
2) I would choose a place with longer pitches, but that's what is available to me not too far from home and that would allow me to climb after a day at the office. Here's a pic of the spot:

It's a railway bridge with bolts. :)
3) The difficulties there are all around my limit, so falling is something that is gonna happen for real and often.
4) I actually fell intentionally on the SP once and it locked well and pretty fast.

So, *that* is the place where I would go, and unfortunately the pitches are short and - to me - pretty hard.
So, I do really want a backup.
Any advice about any backup system that is reliable and not as bothering as tying and untying knots would be totally loved. In this case I have no issues in carrying a lot of extra bulk there (a second rope, a second unit, whatever) to the spot since it's a 5 minutes bike ride from the railway station. Of course I wouln't consider that for any place with a serious approach, I would patiently tie all the required knots there. :)

Thank you!

So are you truly "solo leading" or solo top roping?

After seeing photo, in either case, if you want a back up , use a top rope with something like a petzl microcender as a separate system to the main line that you are leading with.

I am solo LEADING. The picture shows a guy top-roping but that's not me.

I build by anchor on the first two bolts - fortunately one is down on the ground for that very purpose, but I back it up with the first bolt as well - and I lead all the way to the top.

I'd just like to do it faster than with backup knots, that is, but still with the additional safety of a second system, 'just in case', that is. :)

I am solo LEADING. The picture shows a guy top-roping but that's not me. I just don't have nobody carrying a rope to the top anchor for me, and I don't want one. :)

I build my anchor on the first two bolts - fortunately one is down on the ground for that very purpose, but I back it up with the first bolt as well - and I lead all the way to the top. I'd just like to do it faster than with backup knots, that is, but still with the additional safety of a second system, 'just in case', that is. :)

Honestly, I wouldn't bother at all with leading stuff that short. Too high a risk for injury. When you consider that both the Silent Partner and Soloist have some amount of "slip" before they lock up, you're looking at ground fall potential pretty much the entirety of your climb. I wouldn't risk the broken ankles just to lead on a 33' tall railway buttress. That's lunacy.

Just top rope. Or teach your wife/child/dog/local homeless person to belay. Seriously.

Seriously, I can't stand when people asks for tips about solo rope climbing and gets a "find someone to climb with" answer.

I do not solo climb because I'm alone, I do it because I want to do so. And, I cannot top rope that place, and no there aren't other places close to my house. So that last comment is pretty much junk.

Any advice about my original question would still be a lot appreciated. Is there any recommendation about a faster way to have a backup? If so, I'd love to know it. If not, I'll stick with backup knots. It's that simple! Thanks!

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jet pack

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Febs wrote:I cannot top rope that place

But...didn't you attach a picture of somebody TRing it?

Ian Stewart wrote: But...didn't you attach a picture of somebody TRing it?

Not solo! Or, somebody else put the rope to the top for him (it's hard to say from the pic). But no, there is NO way to reach the top anchors from above.

So I guess I'll have to buy the jet pack.

Febs wrote: Not solo! Or, somebody else put the rope to the top for him (it's hard to say from the pic). But no, there is NO way to reach the top anchors from above.

Ah, ok. So top roping is possible, you just need to get to the anchor from the bottom, first.

33ft tall, eh...I think I've seen stick clips that long. =)

Febs wrote:Thanks for your reply. I watched some official Petzl videos about the ASAP and as far as I could understand it would be only suitable for top-roping, I can't imagine how to use it for leading. Do you use it for solo lead? Many thanks

Sorry, I thought we were talking about TR. If you're leading, then you are right the ASAP or Mini Traxion will not work.

I use a Petzl Rescucender, the larger version of the mini-cender(micro?) but it doesn't have teethand relies solely on camming. It will slip at 700kg (according to Petzl, I haven't put that much weight on it), but that would still require a pretty good fall to reach that force (probably at least 10x your body). So that might be an option for a secondary device.

Taking a lead fall on two single ropes would result in a dangerous impact force, I believe.
Were you planning on using a half or twin rope setup?

aed wrote:Taking a lead fall on two single ropes would result in a dangerous impact force, I believe. Were you planning on using a half or twin rope setup?

The Silent Partner is to be used only with single ropes, and most, if not all, solo devices (officially thought for soloing or not) are to be used with single ropes, AFAIK.

So I am actually thinking about two single ropes. For once, weight and bulk is not an issue.