Rapping with a tagline - tips?
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My girlfriend and I recently bought a tag line. It's a 60 meter piece of 7mm accessory cord. We got it for alpine routes requiring full rope rappels and for emergency bails in thunder storms. We would have preferred to buy half ropes but couldn't afford it this summer. The tag line was $60. Maybe next year we'll get doubles. |
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You only rapped on the fatter line, right? |
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I've always understood the blocking binder to be for a "reepschnur" setup, where the lead line bears all the weight of the rappeller and the tag line not only isn't threaded through the rappel device, it may not even be strong enough to hold body weight. I've seen the reepschnur described and diagrammed here on MP, and what I saw looked kind of scary. |
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I think if the rope is pulled over a tight angle as it pulls, it will twist and kink up like that. I have only seen that if you thread the rope through the bolt directly, but I'm sure you didn't do that. |
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We have used the 7 mil static tag line + lead rope system for years. Since the tag line goes through the rap device easier, it will creep unless you thread the lead line through the anchor as you did. As for a knots, we just tie a figure 8 in one rope and connect it to a figure 8 in the other (figure 8 to figure 8). The only drawback is that you always have to pull down the tag line on multi-raps, so if a rope gets stuck on the way down it's likely to be the lead line. Our system has never twisted up as you described. |
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i use the biner block you have described all the time i have never had an issue with tangling that you described. |
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It sounds like you're mixing two different methods. |
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Also, EDKs don't slip, they roll. There are some really good tests out there that IMO show that a properly-dressed single EDK with tail is bomber. |
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Did you tie both ends of the rap line together for a stopper knot? ... Or did you throw them down independently? |
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Only marginally off topic, an overhand knot is only an EDK if the tails are so short that when the knot rolls over on itself, the tails roll in and the knot comes undone. |
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I have always rigged the rap so that I pull on the lead line. This is easier to pull since the lead line is heavier and also if a rope hangs up it is likely to be the tag line. The disadvantage is that the ropes creep, but this isn't a problem rapping off a metal ring. Just never rappel this way off webbing. |
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George Bell wrote:I have always rigged the rap so that I pull on the lead line. This is easier to pull since the lead line is heavier and also if a rope hangs up it is likely to be the tag line. The disadvantage is that the ropes creep, but this isn't a problem rapping off a metal ring. Just never rappel this way off webbing.Can be a problem if the tag line creeps and you suddenly find yourself short on the fast side of your rappel set up (fatality in Zion on Prodigal Sun I seem to remember). I've rappelled this way, but, control the friction on each rope separately (two brake hands, two rope ends, voila). Take a bit of payin' attention, but, not hard. I typically rap with the fat rope through the anchor and just suffer by having to pull the skinny cord down. Feed out of a small rope bag for the tag line, and, I'll rappel it too mostly to keep it in tension and aligned with my lead rope. When I pull the skinny cord, I feed it back into the rope bag so its ready to go on round two (or three...). And, I have the end in a figure eight on a bite clipped to a locker and attached to me. Edit to add: Pulling the tag line can be a bummer if you get it back but stick your lead rope. The option of having to re-lead a pitch on a 6 or 7mm static cord kinda sucks. Twin ropes solve all these issues... |
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C. Archibald wrote: When we went to pull the ropes, (we pulled the tag line) the lead line and the tag line started twisting around each other. The twists were above the knots, so we couldn't untangle them. We had to re-ascend the rope to fix this.I've argued that the reepschnur method is far from optimal, but this is a new one for me. Biner blocks are a standard procedure in csnyoneering and I've never heard of this twisting problem there (but I'm not even remotely an expert at that stuff). I'm also not sure I understand what happened. The fact that you were able to ascend the ropes to fix the problem means that the twisting happened while you still had both ropes in hand at the base of the rappel. In this case just weighting both ropes might force them to untwist again if there isn't too much rock friction, because there can't be any net twist in the ropes unless the rings at the top can move. This might also be a clue. Were the rappel anchors fabricated with longish slings that would be capable of twisting themselves? That would allow the portion of rope above the carabiner to twist by twisting the rap slings. Is this what happened? If not, then I'm also perplexed by the role of the carabiner in creating the twists. It does seem as if the rappel would have to be free-hanging for this even to be a possibility, and that in other cases the carabiner would actually prevent such things from happening, but even in that case what is it about the carabiner that makes twists when there are no twists without the carabiner? Bearbreeder mentioned knoting the two ropes together, but that should produce twists below the rappeller, not above. The real problem would be if such twisting happened after the lead line had been pulled up a bit and was no longer accessible, because then you wouldn't be able to reascend---you'd be super up the creek then. |
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Thanks for your responses. |
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I also like the idea of not throwing the tag line, but just moving it in and out of a small rope bag or stuff sack. |
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Could it be that accessory cord is wound onto a narrow spool, and this tight winding makes it kink like crazy in 60m lengths? I bought a tagline which was a 60m piece of static cord, it was coiled like a new rope with no tight coils. |
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I've seen where pulling a rope through an anchor that has only one rap ring per bolt can twist the rope. If the rap rings are directly attached to the bolt, there should be two per bolt (linked like a chain). Don't know the configuration of your rap anchors. Or if they were even bolted anchors. |
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FrankPS wrote:I've seen where pulling a rope through an anchor that has only one rap ring per bolt can twist the rope. If the rap rings are directly attached to the bolt, there should be two per bolt (linked like a chain). Don't know the configuration of your rap anchors. Or if they were even bolted anchors.+1 I have seen the rope twist and kink when I pulled the rope through anchors in this configuration. |
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We were instructed that the methods suggested here weren't as safe as two figure 8s. Are you guys sure about the EDK or double fishermans with two different diameters and types of rope? |
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yes, I am sure. but don't take my word for it... |
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Steve Jones wrote:We were instructed that the methods suggested here weren't as safe as two figure 8s. Are you guys sure about the EDK or double fishermans with two different diameters and types of rope?you need to ask: what is the biggest risk during rappelling? you have two competing risks. first, the rope can come untied. second, the knot might get stuck. If you use figure 8, the stronger knot reduces the likelihood of the rope will come untied but it increases chance of the rope getting stuck while pulling it. Since it is unlikely/impossible to generate enough force cause the EDK to fail, there is an advantage of using it because it is less likely to get stuck. For me, the rope getting stuck is by far the most pressing risk while rappelling. oh, if you use the EDK keep them tails nice and long! keep in mind this was at like 3000 pounds of force https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt74KX4t9xc&list=UUyg8mZPs2310AYbKuEfnz9w&index=26 |