Question regarding AMGA / ACMG / IFMGA standards for masterpoints.

or maybe sober up a little.

rondopowell wrote:well everyone has something to SAY or spuay FIRST NOT AN ENGLISH TEACHER OR WRITE GOOD GRAM i have climb with the worst and the world best and Cert. Guides NON cert. and non of them you name (americans) em none of em told me about techincal or any book or other than AMG BULLSHIT about TR anchor you first have to understand proper gear place (bolts wiggets slings trees boulder etc ) that holds the rope. i have to date never every seen instruction on the belays, toprope, or any place on rock formation of how to. that why you back-up back-up backup...... also any climber who understands safety and likes them self should take there own safety first and not depend on someone or something (AMG)

woh, that rondopowell post was...out there.

anyway--Fascist, i assume you're referring to the "SPI" program, or Single Pitch Instructor...while these are indeed shorter courses, the remainder of the AMGA courses--Rock Instructor, beginning Alpine, Ski Guide, and then advanced courses, are all at least 10 days (save the ice guide course, which is 5, i believe) and require a decent--but certainly not remarkable in the case of the beginning courses--resume to attend....

there is certainly a spectrum of guides out there...the original post asked for info regarding ACMG/IFMGA/AMGA standards, so let's assume she/he is asking about top-end int'l-certified guides...so hopefully that rules out inexperienced or less-qualified guides...!

i wrote something else about "The Myth of the AMGA Way" here:
elevationoutdoors.com/magaz…

good posts, thanks to all for their insight....RC

Rob, yea the SPI, there was a "Top Rope Site Manager" before though, I'm glad they back peddled a bit on that. I think they got alot of grief for it.

I'm not talking about AMGA exclusively either. There's a few pretty bogus certs out there. Anyone remember Jim Ebert?

I hope that the courses you take retain their value and give you or anyone else better credentials for better jobs in the industry. It's a tough balance for a instruction/certification outfit between pushing their brand and retaining their credibility.

If I was MFIC I would keep a tighter leash on who can use the "AMGA" designation and how plus push the rigorous instruction and resume requirements more.

you guys are really funny that why non of ya really say who you are on here it rock climb not rocket science and non of ya have probably done(wow had to look at the dictiionary)any real rock climbs or put
up any kind of real rock climbs i bet that a fact

i for one think rondopowell needs his own column in Climbing or R&I.

he sounds a little like a buzzed cajon from nawleans

As someone that has been teaching this curriculum for over 10 years, long before it was SPI, (used to be TRSM) I have to say I was bored with the conversation until RONDOPOWELL chimed in. I love this guy, as far as I am concerned the best contribution yet. RONDO, pay no attention to these haters, keep the great posts coming and speak your mind. I'm taking notes.

I really had to refrain from posting through all of this and there is so much I would love to reply too, I think I would get in trouble if I really said how I feel about this thread and who and what I might or might not agree with.

Nonetheless, keep this thread a float, I am enjoying it from the sidelines.

Here is a TR anchor I found online that I really like, It only uses 6 locking carabiners too, so I feel good about this, I am not sure if it's the AMGA way or not though, anyone know if this is acceptable?

rondopowell wrote:you guys are really funny that why non of ya really say who you are on here it rock climb not rocket science and non of ya have probably done(wow had to look at the dictiionary)any real rock climbs or put up any kind of real rock climbs i bet that a fact

IT SAY DONT BE A JERK
yea thank for ur input guy... but if any of these whatever really understood what they were REALLY talking about they would quote
real rock climbers JOHN LONG ,Jim the bird ,john bachar, bill westbay,lynn hill, mike paul,tom herbert, tom jr, rick acamoses(misspelled) richard cilly,ef.chouaird.

rondopowell and skiclimber need a road trip together.

skiclimber wrote:I really had to refrain from posting through all of this and there is so much I would love to reply too, I think I would get in trouble if I really said how I feel about this thread and who and what I might or might not agree with.

one added benefit of having a second biner, whether it be locker or non-locker, is that it helps spread the rope wear (grooving) better. with a single biner you end up with a big deep groove more quickly.

can we at least all agree rondopowell is something special?

Jamie, I'd say you're being a little harsh on us younger guides. It all depends on the objective. If you're hiring a guide for the Grand and they only have an SPI, it doesn't matter if they're from Jersey or Jackson, they're not probably going to do the greatest job.

Because the lack of requiring certifications in this country there's a huge variety of skill levels. I'd say it's important to check a lot of things which you can learn from talking to the guide on the phone. Are they certified? To what level? Have they taken other courses. For how long? How long have they been climbing? Where? How many times have they done the objective in question?

Because of the lack of requirements in guiding and the wild west attitude of some guides here (man, if I met myself guiding five years ago...) makes it very much a "buyer beware" situation. This is unfortunate because it's bad for the people who have a bad experience and it's bad for the industry as a whole.

Here, I'll add to the cliche. I started climbing in Iowa, during college. Got really psyched after doing some outdoor trips to Arkansas. Then I moved to Boston for law school. Met some cool people, quit law school, climbed with somebody I met in a parking lot one day who said they were a guide, realized I wasn't stuck with the whole law school/political science thing and got a job doing wilderness therapy, got fired, got a job at an outdoor education center doing toproping ice and rock for hordes of small children, quit, moved to Colorado after calling every guide service in the state and getting hired by the gumbiest guide service in CO, worked with a gym on their outdoor program, got laid off at gym and didn't seek re-employment with gumby guides, took my RIC, RGCAE, and AGC in a 15 month span, now guide independently in CO.

Take that sentence structuring!

I'll try to address the OP and others, from my perspective as a 14-year career, IFMGA/AMGA Mountain Guide, waiting out a rainy day.

The Single Pitch Instructor scenario is a pretty narrow paradigm - climb a single pitch and build a robust anchor for toprope use that may be unobserved for an extended length of time. In such a scenario, more redundancy is added into the system than what may otherwise be considered "best practice". The anchor I built two weeks ago for a group of teenagers at a crag is dramatically different from the anchor I built for two guests following me on a Grade IV alpine rock route last week.

Much like medicine, guiding isn't necessarily about the right way or the wrong way, its about the best way. Ultimate safety has to be balanced with acceptable risk and efficiency. The maximized redundancy top-rope anchor is not appropriate in an alpine setting, and using it at every anchor will add a significant amount of time into my day - maybe even prevent me from finishing the climb in a timely manner, decreasing our overall safety.

Determining where the line is requires judgement, which needs experience. Which is why it takes 2 full years, at a minimum, for an aspiring rock guide, already having a substantial resume, to become a Certified Rock Guide. 3.5 years for an alpine guide. Another 2 for a ski mountain guide. Last I was told, an aspiring IFMGA Mountain Guide was averaging 7 years to complete the entire program. This is on par with other IFMGA member associations. Because of an injury, and attending university when I was 31, it took me 10 years, from start to finish.

Now this doesn't promise that the guide is a "good" guide - just that they have met a minimum examination of technical skills. That they use the best technique for the circumstances given. They can still be a jerk. Just like a doctor who has passed their boards, a lawyer who has passed their bar, or a nurse or paramedic that has passed the registry exam.

I find, all other things being equal, an AMGA certified guide operating within their terrain specifications operates more effectively and efficiently than a non-certified guide. They assess the hazards, consider the possible mitigations, and make the best decision and move forward - AND can communicate all of this to others. No one is allowed to get with "that was what I was taught." A comprehensive understanding of the hazards, the capabilities of the equipment, and how the techniques use the equipment to address the hazards is a fundamental.

While a lot of my guiding has effected my personal climbing, what is an "acceptable risk" while guiding is notably different. When I'm climbing for fun, the risk assessment is shared with my partner, and I only answer to them (and the missus). When I'm guiding, that risk assessment is my responsibility, and I answer to my guest, their family, my employer, the land manager, the insurance company, and to my fellow guides.