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Anyone have problems lowering a second with ATC Guide or Reverso in Guide Mode?

Jack Ubaek · · tucson · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 20

"girth hitch the auto-block release point, run through redirect then attach it directly to your harness"

WTF?? Amazing to me that advice like this is being distributed.

talk about making something waaay more difficult that it needs to be.

Nate Solnit · · Bath, NH · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0

That's actually my preferred method. You don't have to deal with trying to feather the plate device for a slow/ controlled lower. Put a munter on the brake strand to harness, sit on the release sling, and lower off the munter. Not too complicated and utterly predictable.

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

There are a lot of good ways to lower with an auto blocking device.

First, I put a munter hitch on my belay loop with the brake strand. Then you can release the auto block by either using the nose of a biner (or nut tool) or you can girth hitch a sling to the hole, redirect it and clip it to your harness.

Either way, you have a munter as your primary belay, and the biner that is clipped through the wire of the device becomes the redirect. This prevents you from releasing the device to abruptly and dropping your partner.

patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
Jack Ubaek wrote:"girth hitch the auto-block release point, run through redirect then attach it directly to your harness" WTF?? Amazing to me that advice like this is being distributed. talk about making something waaay more difficult that it needs to be.
Way more difficult!? We have seen the results of people cutting corners when lowering in guide mode.

Like many have said lowering in guide mode is a pain in the ass. But if I have to do it due to unforeseen events I want to do it properly with both hands able to be on the brake side of the rope.

Redirect brake strand, unweight device with body weight and lower with two hands.
Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155

I've only ever lowered a few feet here and there when in guide mode, and I've only ever used the method Petzl shows (that is, just pull up the device using the little hole). I've always assumed that if you let go of the device that it will just snap back into locked mode, which is what happened when I lowered those few times, but from this thread I'm getting the impression that there's a possibility for it to not lock again. Could somebody explain how this happens? And why is this risk only valid while lowering and not while belaying?

patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
Ian Stewart wrote:I've only ever lowered a few feet here and there when in guide mode, and I've only ever used the method Petzl shows (that is, just pull up the device using the little hole).
For giving out a little slack that is what I do. I release the device while keeping on hand tightly on the brake in the brake position. I do not let the brake rope SLIDE through my brake hand as I want to maintain full control.

For lowering somebody 30m I want to have two hands on my brake rope. So body weight release of the device is used.

Ian Stewart wrote:I've always assumed that if you let go of the device that it will just snap back into locked mode, which is what happened when I lowered those few times, but from this thread I'm getting the impression that there's a possibility for it to not lock again.
It should lock again. Few reasons for it not to. However if you are releasing the guide you should be relying on the brake rope for braking not the guide mode.
Benjamin Chapman · · Small Town, USA · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 18,818

No...no problems....it's not rocket science. Add a 2nd carabiner between the belay loop and the ATC to add friction and smooth out the lower.

Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433

Ok sounds like I have an understanding from the number of replies... Seems to be saying that when lowering at a faster rater the ATC Guide has potential to get out of control, and therefore higher friction is advised.

While many methods have been described here, i'll be using what BD advises. Using a sling to lever the device out of auto-block while using a hitch on your redirect as added friction. They are showing a munter on the redirect.

BD Guide Instructions - PDF

Seems to me that if you have the guide setup in autoblock mode with ample room for taking in slack, trying to reach a munter on a high redirect is going to be a PITA. Especially if you are trying to use your body-weight on a redirected sling (to lever auto-block release) in order to have two hand control. Will be interested to try this out in the field.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Tom Sherman wrote:Ok sounds like I have an understanding from the number of replies... Seems to be saying that when lowering at a faster rater the ATC Guide has potential to get out of control, and therefore higher friction is advised. While many methods have been described here, i'll be using what BD advises. Using a sling to lever the device out of auto-block while using a hitch on your redirect as added friction. They are showing a munter on the redirect. BD Guide Instructions - PDF Seems to me that if you have the guide setup in autoblock mode with ample room for taking in slack, trying to reach a munter on a high redirect is going to be a PITA. Especially if you are trying to use your body-weight on a redirected sling (to lever auto-block release) in order to have two hand control. Will be interested to try this out in the field.
ive tried it many times ... you need optimal anchors setup

that is a nice higher/farther point for the redirect munter ... and enough space

the munter off the harness works better in crowded situations IMO

for anyone that thinks the that the autoblock will "close itself" under tension ...

How I decked from 40 feet at the New River Gorge - an important message about safe lowering technique using the ATC Guide!


Myself (Daniel) and a group of coworkers were out on a weekend climbing trip in the New River Gorge from Sunday 8/25/13 - Monday 8/26/13. We had an excellent day of sport climbing in the Bubba City area on Sunday, but on Monday I had the most intense experience of my life.

The incident report:

A friend (Sean) was attempting to lower me from a belay station at the top of 'Transporter Crack' of the Star Trek wall of the Fern Creek area using an ATC Guide in guide mode, which he failed to backup with a friction knot.

Sean had set up a Black Diamond ATC Guide autoblock device in guide mode to belay Daniel from above. Instead of the climber going indirect to the anchors, getting off belay, and switching to a more practical lowering system to allow another group member to lead it, Sean decided to practice lowering using the autoblock system. Sean threaded a thin sling through the small hole of the device. After tugging up on the sling, Sean redirected it through a carabiner off of one of the bolts. Tension released slowly, then when it finally opened all the way, it inverted creating a basic pulley. When the system finally opened, Daniel began to gain momentum and realizing that the climber was falling, Sean attempted to brake the rope but couldn't hold the weight of the climber and contend with the increasing momentum of the fall. Daniel was slowed by Sean's attempts at braking for the first 10 feet or so, but experienced a virtual free fall for the next 30 feet until he decked onto the dirt covered ground below, which sloped inwards to the wall at roughly a 30 degree angle. Luckily, because of the relatively short distance of the fall, and the fact that Daniel landed on his rear end with his feet sliding downwards on the slope, he was able to hike out of the incident on his own power after his group cleared his spine and checked his vitals. 911 and the park service were contacted and a ranger arrived on the scene to help coordinate local EMS and hiked out with the group. The bruised climber was checked out and cleared by the EMS personnel, chose self transport out of the area and was driven out by fellow group members. He experienced no broken bones or other medical complications.

There were several oversights that caused the accident. First of all, Sean had used the lowering technique before, but never in a situation where a climber was being lowered from the top of a route. Given the fact that Sean had used the technique before for climbers that needed to be lowered only a few feet while on belay, to the best of his knowledge he believed the system would be adequate as a lowering technique in this situation. Not so. Daniel should have gone indirect by clipping in to the anchor as soon as he completed the route, and a more practical lowering system should have been implemented. The lowering technique was in no way necessary, and risky in this type of recreational situation. The primary cause of the fall was that Sean neglected to redirect the brake strand to a carabiner connected to the anchor above the system in order to create a three-to-one braking advantage. The second step neglected was that Sean also did not back up the brake strand with a friction knot made with webbing or cordellette which should have been clipped back to his belay loop.


reddit.com/r/climbing/comme…

the accident is also in rock and ice issue #215

issuu.com/rock-and-ice/docs…

one of my guiding friends told me this story of a new aspirant taking his exam ... he setup to release his guide plate without a redirect/munter and dropped his examiner the length of the climb

needless to say he failed
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Tom Sherman wrote:Seems to be saying that when lowering at a faster rater the ATC Guide has potential to get out of control, and therefore higher friction is advised.
The agreed-upon procedures have you inserting a Munter hitch, either on the harness or at a redirect point above the plate. In other words, convert to a system you could have used without the plate, because it isn't safe to lower with a plate.

Perhaps the new DMM Pivot will change this.
Michael C · · New Jersey · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 340

A friend of mine experience a similiar situation. While belaying off of the anchor, with the ATC in guidemode, he attempted to lower his partner but did not have the brake strand of the rope secured with some sort of friction hitch or munter. In an instant, he dropped his partner about ten feet and immediatly let go of the sling he was using to open the ATC, which immediately locked and saved the climber from falling any further.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

The trouble with the plate configuration is that it is basically either on or off. When on, the climber's weight is held by the load strand pinching the brake strand from above. Almost soon as this pinching action is released by tilting the device, the plate is in the off position and you have little more than a carabiner pulley between belayer and hanging climber. There is a narrow range in which lowering control might be possible because some pinching action is retained, but it is extremely easy to to exceed that range, with potentially catastrophic loss of friction.

Releasing the tilting mechanism doesn't always appear to result in a reactivation of the locking mechanism once the ropes are running fast.

These plates were never meant for situations in which a substantial lower is contemplated. If an emergency happens and you have to do it, essentially replacing the system with a Munter hitch seems to be the only safe way to proceed.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

just use either a higher redirect or a munter on the harness

and practice it over and over again

lets be honest ... how many folks practice releasing the autoblock at least once a year ...

just do it when it starts raining or when youre hands are gone at the end of the day ... itll simulate real conditions

i would venture a totally uneducated but absolutely "accurate" guess that 90%+ of the folks who belay in autoblock dont practice releasing it under tension at least once a year

;)

Derek Doucet · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 66
rgold wrote:...If an emergency happens and you have to do it, essentially replacing the system with a Munter hitch seems to be the only safe way to proceed.
With all due respect, this simply isn't the case. There is a spectrum of techniques available, each with their own appropriate application. In every case, they require sound management of the brake strand. At minimum, any time one is going to be monkeying around with a system involving a loaded plate and needs both hands free, a catastrophe knot on the bake strand behind the device is a prudent precaution.

In increasing order of the practical lowering distances for which the various methods are best applied:

  • For very short lowers (at most a foot or two, as in when you just need to feed a bit of rope to allow a hanging second to regain a stance just out of reach) using the blocking carabiner as a ratchet by moving it back and forth will cause the rope to slowly creep out.
  • For moderate length lowers (say a few to perhaps ~20') after which the climber intends to re-ascend: Place an autoblock on the brake strand connected to your belay loop. Redirect the brake strand through a point on the anchor behind the device. Use one of the various methods involving slings, nut tools, carabiners, etc. to rotate the device out of brake position and lower. This method provides ample friction because of the redirect and a sound backup in the autoblock, but is impractical for any substantial distance because of the need to forcibly keep the device out of locking position for the duration. Applying a munter hitch on the brake strand to your belay loop is an alternative here as well, but in my experience is more of a cluster than a quick redirect and autoblock. YMMV.
  • For longer lowers, especially those after which the climber does NOT intend to climb back up, the best solution is to permanently flip the device over in to redirected plate mode. If there is no way for the climber to unweight the device, this will require a releasable load transfer (easily accomplished with a prussic loop and the back end of the climbing rope or with a cordalette, and a munter/mule). Once unweighted, the device can be reoriented in redirected plate mode, the brake strand redirected, an autoblock backup applied, and away you go. This entire process need not take more than a couple of minutes. Obviously appropriate backups in the form of catastrophe knots or directly connecting the climbing rope to the anchor need to be in place while this transition is made. Never leave them hanging from a single friction hitch!

The bottom line is that so called "guide plates" can be very easily and effectively used as lowering devices. The fault is not with the devices. With all due respect to those involved in related accidents, I have yet to hear of a single case that wasn't the result of fundamental user error. That isn't judgment by the way- I've made my share of errors over the years and have simply been fortunate.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Well, ratcheting out a foot isn't an emergency so that wasn't what I was referring to.

What I meant by "essentially replacing the system with a Munter hitch" referred to the standard method of placing a Munter hitch either on a higher anchor point or on the harness. Sure there are other ways to rig things, ways that aren't clearly better as far as I can tell, and in some sense are worse because now rather than a uniform procedure there are different ones.

Method 3 is an example of the comedy associated with guide plate belaying. Load transfers, Munter mules, prussiks, cordelettes, oh my! And it only takes a few minutes to set up, but don't forget the catastrophe knots. Surely the Munter hitch method is way better than all that, most especially under the added stresses of an emergency.

Meanwhile, using the classic belay set up I described earlier, I've already lowered the second the entire pitch before the Method 3 belayer is even ready to begin, assuming of course that he hasn't already killed the second by overlooking a catastrophe knot and leaving them hanging on a friction hitch that fails.

Derek Doucet · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 66

Oh my. Sorry to have touched a nerve. That wasn't my intention, nor was seriously arguing the relative merits of the various methods under discussion. I was responding to the contention that there was only a single safe way to
proceed in transitioning a loaded plate to a lower and that's not the case. Thanks for reiterating that you were specifically referring to emergencies. I overlooked that and concede the first method I offered isn't relevant in that context.

I would however be grateful for clarification on one point. It seems from your last post that one of your reasons for disliking these devices is that there is no single one size fits all method with which to apply them in all scenarios. Surely that's not really how you feel? There are precious few climbing problems for which there is a single correct solution. Is it not far better to have a full tool box and the judgement to apply its contents appropriately than to blindly deploy a single solution regardless of circumstance? If all you've got is a hammer...

I think the root cause of all of this controversy at the end of the day is the mass marketing of what is arguably a specialized tool designed for a small subset of the climbing community. While I respect your opinion and your enormous wealth of experience, I firmly believe that applied appropriately these are excellent devices. Whether the majority of those using them are applying them appropriately is another question altogether.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Derek Doucet wrote: It seems from your last post that one of your reasons for disliking these devices is that there is no single one size fits all method with which to apply them in all scenarios. Surely that's not really how you feel?


No not at all. I said that in the case of lowering scenarios, there is a uniform method (Munter hitches) that is also simpler then, say, Method 3 and actually does apply to all scenarios, so I could hardly be holding the lack of a uniform method against the plates as far as lowering is concerned.

I posted my complaints about guide plates earlier in this thread, meaning four years ago! But I don't thing much has happened to change my mind. For those who only read the end of threads (and who could blame you when someone resurrects a four year old one), here's my rant, sadly de-paragraphed so as to be formatted by the quote command:

rgold wrote:In my opinion, the guide plates are a "solution" to a problem that never existed. While "solving" this non-existent problem of how in the world to belay the second, they encourage inattention, introduce multiple inconveniences, harbor dangerous idiosyncracies, and provoke absolutely hilarious work-arounds, as evidenced by the video illustrating everything the modern belayer has to do to lower a second. Personally, I've been belayed with guide plates by experienced users, including experienced guides. I dislike the experience---it is almost impossible to step down quickly without locking up the plate and ending up on tension. If the rope runs off to the side or over an overhang, this can cause nasty fall and leave the second, who was just trying to adjust their position, hanging in space. In any case it ruins the sense of climbing the pitch. The plates do have their specialized uses, and may be fine for generally less than vertical terrain. Once it gets steep and overhangs and/or roofs are involved, either as climbing problems or just features of the terrain the ropes have to run over, sensitive paying out of slack and outright lowering becomes a routine part of the belaying process, and in those cases, I think that the guides plates are a problem, not a solution.
Derek Doucet wrote:I think the root cause of all of this controversy at the end of the day is the mass marketing of what is arguably a specialized tool designed for a small subset of the climbing community. While I respect your opinion and your enormous wealth of experience, I firmly believe that applied appropriately these are excellent devices. Whether the majority of those using them are applying them appropriately is another question altogether.
Agreed (especially when you credit me with "an enormous wealth of experience," but also your substantive points.) Seriously though, I do my best to never cite experience as the reason for claims and try to give logical arguments that can be debated and falsified if they are wrong. Plates have their uses, and there are others with even more enormous wealths of experience who swear by them; I seem to be in a minority that dwindles by the year on this issue.
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
bearbreeder wrote:for anyone that thinks the that the autoblock will "close itself" under tension ... How I decked from 40 feet at the New River Gorge - an important message about safe lowering technique using the ATC Guide!.....
That example doesn't demonstrate your claim. From the description it seems that the belayer never released the guide plate back to its original angle. Releasing the plate back to its original state would almost certainly lock off. But it is not how it should be operated so I certainly wouldn't recommend it.

rgold wrote:If an emergency happens and you have to do it, essentially replacing the system with a Munter hitch seems to be the only safe way to proceed.
I too disagree. A redirect of the brake strand is perfectly sufficient.

Derek Doucet wrote:If there is no way for the climber to unweight the device, this will require a releasable load transfer (easily accomplished with a prussic loop and the back end of the climbing rope or with a cordalette, and a munter/mule).
Forget all that just use body weight to release the belay device. I've done that plenty of times with people who are heavier than me.

Like everything in climbing you need to know how to operate you equipment to stay safe. If you have the knowledge and skills then you should be able to safely problem solve these things without risk.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
patto wrote: That example doesn't demonstrate your claim. From the description it seems that the belayer never released the guide plate back to its original angle. Releasing the plate back to its original state would almost certainly lock off. But it is not how it should be operated so I certainly wouldn't recommend it.
when it slips it can happen so fast that by the time you react your climber has decked or hit a ledge

especially if you release it with yr body weight ... it wont "close itself" when youre putting on tension leveraging it open

theres enough incidents of this

if one wants to transition to a "regular" lowering method if the climber can quickly unweight the system ... heres a guides trick to do so without taking em off belay

one can use the same method with the a releasable friction knot, a biner pump to create slack and the below method to set up the lower quickly if the rope is under tension (wont work with an alpine smart) ... they are never off belay

youtube.com/watch?v=JoZ-5xr…

;)
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
bearbreeder wrote: when it slips it can happen so fast that by the time you react your climber has decked or hit a ledge especially if you release it with yr body weight ...
Absolutely. But it won't slip if you have control of the brake rope in a braked position! Which is the entire point which people seem to be forgetting. Why somebody would release an blocked device without controlling the brake rope is quite unfathomable.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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